Built-In ND's - Why doesn't Weapon have them?

[Brian Merlen]

That is very sobering. I had no idea the prices were that close -- I would've thought Red would be about $10,000 cheaper.

that listing is total bs man, don't believe it. the red has no EF mount, the mini does have that AND PL in their pricing, that makes this not accurate, they cost "the same" with those in the kits... and why would anyone need a 7 thousand dollar view finder from arri? why not a 7q? or something even cheaper? mini has controls on it, i see no reason to buy the arri view finder. also the mini shoots a long time with that amount of media, huge roll times, you would need a lot more red mags to make this accurate i think duration wise (is my guess)... plus you simply can't compare a mini to anything but weapon because of blackshades, that and prores are the silly features that weapon is charging a ton for.. so i think this comparison is not particularly accurate, and red is doing deep discounts at the moment on this stuff, you didn't include that in the analysis either, so once the discounts end the red is like 101k like has been pointed out already... which makes it more of a high end competitor. for these many inaccuracies this comparison is totally nonsense guys on the prices. you can try and spin it anyway you want, but I'm calling bullshit on this right now...

yes if you include the codex recorder things will get more tricky pricing this out, but this is why its hard to compare modular systems in general. i don't think WMD, THC, or WCU4 should be included in the discussion at all...we can arrange this modular stuff anyway you guys want to but i still think the mini has some good features. also idk why you think amira has less dynamic range when theres lots of test charts on this stuff already. plus even if it was performing worse, which i don't agree with i think its about even range wise what about...( all the quirks of the gate shadow, cmos smear, low light noise, orbs, and whatever else are not in the arris?)? like you guys need to look at this stuff with a wider perspective, i don't think its nearly as easy to declare a winner as some might think. but in the end i don't even care, money is money. I'm going to see over the 6 months what rents more my dragon or my amira, if the arri kills the red ill add more of them to my inventory, if the red kills the arri cash wise ill add more of them to my inventory, the features and price points become less relevant to me if one of the systems is my cash cow. i currently don't have the data to make a choice on this yet, but by the end of the year ill know which system I'm buying a few more bodies of..

 

[Elsie N]

that listing is total bs man, don't believe it. the red has no EF mount, the mini does have that AND PL in their pricing, that makes this not accurate, they cost "the same" with those in the kits... and why would anyone need a 7 thousand dollar view finder from arri? why not a 7q? or something even cheaper? mini has controls on it, i see no reason to buy the arri view finder. also the mini shoots a long time with that amount of media, huge roll times, you would need a lot more red mags to make this accurate i think duration wise (is my guess)... plus you simply can't compare a mini to anything but weapon because of blackshades, that and prores are the silly features that weapon is charging a ton for.. so i think this comparison is not particularly accurate, and red is doing deep discounts at the moment on this stuff, you didn't include that in the analysis either, so once the discounts end the red is like 101k like has been pointed out already... which makes it more of a high end competitor. for these many inaccuracies this comparison is totally nonsense guys on the prices. you can try and spin it anyway you want, but I'm calling bullshit on this right now...

yes if you include the codex recorder things will get more tricky pricing this out, but this is why its hard to compare modular systems in general. i don't think WMD, THC, or WCU4 should be included in the discussion at all...we can arrange this modular stuff anyway you guys want to but i still think the mini has some good features. also idk why you think amira has less dynamic range when theres lots of test charts on this stuff already. plus even if it was performing worse, which i don't agree with i think its about even range wise what about...( all the quirks of the gate shadow, cmos smear, low light noise, orbs, and whatever else are not in the arris?)? like you guys need to look at this stuff with a wider perspective, i don't think its nearly as easy to declare a winner as some might think. but in the end i don't even care, money is money. I'm going to see over the 6 months what rents more my dragon or my amira, if the arri kills the red ill add more of them to my inventory, if the red kills the arri cash wise ill add more of them to my inventory, the features and price points become less relevant to me if one of the systems is my cash cow. i currently don't have the data to make a choice on this yet, but by the end of the year ill know which system I'm buying a few more bodies of..

Comparing cameras, to me at least, vis a vis the price per camera is a non sequitur.

The comparison should be between the entire culture around the camera. For those entrenched in the ARRI culture, that's fine. For those who embrace the RED system of digital cinema, that IMO is superior... due to the fact you get software, a module for every situation you can imagine, and affordable (relative term) 8k soon.

EDIT: Forgot to mention "new cameras" through timely free firmware upgrades.

 

[Gene Sung]

I've been comparing the Arri Mini to the Magnesium Weapon and I think this is a pretty realistic price for a more minimal system. This is taking into account I have a fair bit of rigging I can adopt and some V-Mount Batteries already. Note: On the Alexa, you can buy a considerably cheaper Starlite EVF which Arri officially works with that controls the whole body.

Alexa Mini Kit

- Body $45,000
- Canon Lens Mount $1700
- Starlite EVF or SmallHD $3000 or $1500
- Cards 3 = 384 gigs total $1500
- Rig $300
- Cables / Misc $500
- Battery Plate $300
- Swit V x 2 $400

Total: $52,700 with Starlite Monitor / camera control or
$51,200 with SmallHD and use buttons on body

---------


Weapon Package W/O Upgrade

- Weapon Magnesium $34,500
- Base Expander $1750
- Side Handle or Sidekick $1000
- Canon Mount $700
- 2 SSD = 512 total $2800
- Swit V x 2 $400
- WC battery plate. $400
- EVF $1500
- 5.0 Touch $1400 (Used)
- cables and misc. $500
- Hoya ND Filters $180
- Rig $500

Total $45,630

Personally, I'm leaning toward the Magensium Weapon (but it might be LONG wait for new users) because of the upgrade ability. I do like Arri's color science and look better; and I feel Arri makes a lower maintenance camera - No black shading, don't have to monitor temperatures, built in NDs, Arri reliability, etc...

But yeah, the upgrade ability for Red is huge as the current Alexa sensor is 5 years old, which really worries me. In the long run for people without huge amounts of money, the Red makes a little more sense.

An X-Factor in all this is the Arri USA pricing is super lame. The Mini is E32,500 Euros which translates to $35,000 dollars, which is $10,000 cheaper in Europe than in the USA where the body is $45,000

I did a bunch of research and apparently if you are Non-EU resident, you can buy it in Germany without VAT. The customs tax to bring it into the USA is 2.5%, much less than CA sales tax and I would pay a broker $250 to deal with the paper work. I was going to be in Germany for a vacation this summer and it's really tempting to pick up the Alexa Mini.

But yeah, the upgradeability of Red makes the investment safer over the years.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I've been comparing the Arri Mini to the Magnesium Weapon and I think this is a pretty realistic price for a more minimal system. This is taking into account I have a fair bit of rigging I can adopt and some V-Mount Batteries already. Note: On the Alexa, you can buy a considerably cheaper Starlite EVF which Arri officially works with that controls the whole body.

Alexa Mini Kit

- Body $45,000
- Canon Lens Mount $1700
- Starlite EVF or SmallHD $3000 or $1500
- Cards 3 = 384 gigs total $1500
- Rig $300
- Cables / Misc $500
- Battery Plate $300
- Swit V x 2 $400

Total: $52,700 with Starlite Monitor / camera control or
$51,200 with SmallHD and use buttons on body

---------


Weapon Package W/O Upgrade

- Weapon Magnesium $34,500
- Base Expander $1750
- Side Handle or Sidekick $1000
- Canon Mount $700
- 2 SSD = 512 total $2800
- Swit V x 2 $400
- WC battery plate. $400
- EVF $1500
- 5.0 Touch $1400 (Used)
- cables and misc. $500
- Hoya ND Filters $180
- Rig $500

Total $45,630

Personally, I'm leaning toward the Magensium Weapon (but it might be LONG wait for new users) because of the upgrade ability. I do like Arri's color science and look better; and I feel Arri makes a lower maintenance camera - No black shading, don't have to monitor temperatures, built in NDs, Arri reliability, etc...

But yeah, the upgrade ability for Red is huge as the current Alexa sensor is 5 years old, which really worries me. In the long run for people without huge amounts of money, the Red makes a little more sense.

An X-Factor in all this is the Arri USA pricing is super lame. The Mini is E32,500 Euros which translates to $35,000 dollars, which is $10,000 cheaper in Europe than in the USA where the body is $45,000

I did a bunch of research and apparently if you are Non-EU resident, you can buy it in Germany without VAT. The customs tax to bring it into the USA is 2.5%, much less than CA sales tax and I would pay a broker $250 to deal with the paper work. I was going to be in Germany for a vacation this summer and it's really tempting to pick up the Alexa Mini.

But yeah, the upgradeability of Red makes the investment safer over the years.

PS Weapon has auto blackshading.

 

[Brian Merlen]

wow, german vacation it is! I'm going to arri HQ guys lol! ill bring my red though to shoot it on, just to screw with them a bit as i buy it haha

ps 4/3 and raw are paid upgrades from arri..so that counts against the arri, but way less than the 10k USA surcharge....EU vacation for the win

 

[David Vandervale]

that listing is total bs man, don't believe it. the red has no EF mount, the mini does have that AND PL in their pricing, that makes this not accurate, they cost "the same" with those in the kits...

Can't say "total" BS. The price in that article DID include an EF mount for the RED. The writer added a few items (including an EF mount) in the breakdown to make the packages match somewhat closer. On that note, I do agree that there are so many bits, pieces, and factors that make a comparison irrelevant. I think the point was more along the lines of "look how quickly this price escalates" as opposed to a RED and Arri comparison.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I've been comparing the Arri Mini to the Magnesium Weapon and I think this is a pretty realistic price for a more minimal system. This is taking into account I have a fair bit of rigging I can adopt and some V-Mount Batteries already. Note: On the Alexa, you can buy a considerably cheaper Starlite EVF which Arri officially works with that controls the whole body.

Alexa Mini Kit

- Body $45,000
- Canon Lens Mount $1700
- Starlite EVF or SmallHD $3000 or $1500
- Cards 3 = 384 gigs total $1500
- Rig $300
- Cables / Misc $500
- Battery Plate $300
- Swit V x 2 $400

Total: $52,700 with Starlite Monitor / camera control or
$51,200 with SmallHD and use buttons on body

---------


Weapon Package W/O Upgrade

- Weapon Magnesium $34,500
- Base Expander $1750
- Side Handle or Sidekick $1000
- Canon Mount $700
- 2 SSD = 512 total $2800
- Swit V x 2 $400
- WC battery plate. $400
- EVF $1500
- 5.0 Touch $1400 (Used)
- cables and misc. $500
- Hoya ND Filters $180
- Rig $500

Total $45,630

You are comparing cameras designed with different priorities which reflects on their functionality.

I propose adding a dedicated smartphone with 5 replaceable batteries and a custom smartphone mount in Alexa Mini accessory list, unless minimal control is sufficient for $50K device.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Can't say "total" BS. The price in that article DID include an EF mount for the RED. The writer added a few items (including an EF mount) in the breakdown to make the packages match somewhat closer. On that note, I do agree that there are so many bits, pieces, and factors that make a comparison irrelevant. I think the point was more along the lines of "look how quickly this price escalates" as opposed to a RED and Arri comparison.

Where does it include EF? I don't see EF anywhere in here... I'll even copy paste it in...

"However, in order to make it comparable to the Alexa Mini quote, we still need to add a Touchscreen LCD, PL Mount, EVF mount, 3 RED Mini-mags, and a Mini-Mag reader (yes, because the Alexa Mini Accessory Package comes with 3 cards and a reader!)
($2,950, $3,500, $2000, $1400x3, and $195 respectively)"

 

[Derek Olson]

How about Sony F3, F5, F55, F700, FS7. And that's just Sony.
All fully swappable mounts, all with ND filter wheels. And they sell like hot cakes...

I thought of this too, but then I realized they are not fully swappable mounts. They are just adaptable mounts.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I guess the adaptable approach is less expensive for enduser as the mechanics for the NDS etc are intact behind the adpative mount. So I would not see that approach as a negative.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I thought of this too, but then I realized they are not fully swappable mounts. They are just adaptable mounts.

And the point is?....

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

This is just ridiculous- why would RED (or any good business for that matter) want to move away from ANY marked they hold? First rule of business- EXPAND- not contract!!!

Well it's not the only rule. Sometimes increased specialization means higher profits, especially when low end customers create negative perception and a higher likelyhood of ugly work with cameras, are a huge support headache, and increasingly are being offered cheapo alternatives that they consider "good enough" for a lower standard (like from BM) so the market itself is shrinking along with its potential profit margins.

As you know, every engineering decision is a compromise between various factors. You can't please everyone with a camera, and must aim for a central target of user type, realizing that others can still benefit, but will not get exactly what they need.

But it's also perception.

You will never see Prada selling a new line to Payless to expand their business, or Disney opening cheaper new theme parks that look like Six Flags (actually Disney is abandoning the low end market in North America to focus on a premium experience for a mostly upper middle class clientele), and Armani learned from Exchange that not all expansion is good expansion.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

We'll have wireless FF for Alexa Mini for 1/5th of that haha

Are you working on an Alexa Birger solution? That's exciting news.

 

[Stacey Spears]

You will never see Prada selling a new line to Payless to expand their business

I think Kohls buying Juicy is a case study of how a perceived high end brand can be devalued overnight.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Well RED did not buy any camera brand- they created their own product for that marked. I think it did really well for a few reasons:
Asics/sensors deemed not suitable for Epic could be recycled. Also even if Scarlet did not make much profit the accessories necessary for it to work did. I think Scarlet bodies did financially very well on their own. Also this market is much broader so the brand awareness gained tremendously. Not to mention all the upgrade programs that brought cash flow (up front I must say- huge plus) and got scarleteers switch to epics. I could go on but you get the picture...Scarlet was a big boost for the brand on many levels and could remain very precious- maybe not exactly the same way but with a little spin...... ;-) and we all know who the real spin master is hahaha

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Well RED did not buy any camera brand- they created their own product for that marked. I think it did really well for a few reasons:
Asics/sensors deemed not suitable for Epic could be recycled. Also even if Scarlet did not make much profit the accessories necessary for it to work did. I think Scarlet bodies did financially very well on their own. Also this market is much broader so the brand awareness gained tremendously. Not to mention all the upgrade programs that brought cash flow (up front I must say- huge plus) and got scarleteers switch to epics. I could go on but you get the picture...Scarlet was a big boost for the brand on many levels and could remain very precious- maybe not exactly the same way but with a little spin...... ;-) and we all know who the real spin master is hahaha

Maybe, but I see the middle class of the rental market here disappearing. You have high end - Epic, Alexa, F55, renting for OK rates, and added as a charge to your day rate if you bring your own camera - then "no end low end" where people show up with their gear and include it in their day rate of $300 a day or often less - here we have DSLRs, all BM cams. Scarlet is often seen in that realm, and so I agree if Red is thinking that market is disappearing. Plus it is fed simultaneously by so many awesome used camera sources now like RedOnes, F35s, the list is long.

People who want the very best will pay whatever is necessary to get it - that's where your real margins are, whether as a camera maker or a DP. It's hard to make a living in the middle ground without massive numbers.

And whether Red created their own brand or bought it, the rules of branding still apply. If you are are perceived as low end, it puts a ceiling on what price you can fetch for any model in your lineup. No one would buy a 100K Hyundai, no matter how great a car it might be.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I know that for Epic owners like yourself Scarlet is a curse. But for Red it's been a blessing... oh the compromises...;-)