Build 16... taste

[Patrick Tresch]

Magic Picutre Build

Magic Picutre Build

Also, does the noise reduction algorithm that appears to be written into the codec [that noise is way too smooth to be without some kind of magic NR... even if it goes by a different name] change depending on the color temperature at which you process?

Wondering the same... Is this MAGIC PICTURE BUILD emprovement tight with some picture resolution trade off?

Jim stated that "Resolution (and apparent sharpness) are unchanged from Build 15."

Or is this noise emprovement the result of the way redcode is now encoded?

Thanks

Pat

 

[David Battistella]

Wondering the same... Is this MAGIC PICTURE BUILD emprovement tight with some picture resolution trade off?

Pat

Pat,

One thing I like about the RED image is the aesthetic. There really is not anything else that looks like RED and I can start to see the look of it as I watch more and more footage.

I would take a resolution hit for the aesthetics meaning. If increasing resolution or sharpness means changing how the color is displayed, the noise pattern or how the highlights roll off (which is very much like film) the I would choose to have those three things remain.

At 4K you are still capturing 4 times more information (not 2 times, 4 times) the information than a 2K film scan, so I do not think that resolution is a problem with the RED ONE.

I have seen supers sharp DALSA images, but the camera's image feels much more digital than the aesthetically pleasing, digital film like image from a RED.

my .02 cents.

Aesthetics over resolution for sure.

David

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I would take a resolution hit for the aesthetics meaning. If increasing resolution or sharpness means changing how the color is displayed, the noise pattern or how the highlights roll off (which is very much like film) the I would choose to have those three things remain.

Hi,

As for aesthetics, I agree that the RED team has created something beautiful, but are you saying that you like the compression artifacts in the noise of existing build? That is the only real problem RED has as it is now? This is exactly what RED seems to have address with the new build. With this comes a lot of advantages.

As for aesthetics against resolution I couldn't agree more but I don't think that'll be a problem (if so you can always go and rent a D21 or a Genesis :biggrin: )

Fredrik Callinggard

 

[David Battistella]

Hi,

As for aesthetics, I agree that the RED team has created something beautiful, but are you saying that you like the compression artifacts in the noise of existing build?
Fredrik Callinggard

No, It's not that I like that. Of course I do not like the noise, but the good news is: neither does RED, hence all of this work on 16.

What I do like is that RED does seem to be concerned with striking a good balance between the two. It looks like they went to work on 16 to find this balance.

David

 

[I Bloom]

Honestly, the whole "I'm an artist not a geek" thing is a copout.

I agree, hence the joke. DP's are famously mathematical magician characters throughout the history of Hollywood. We are the "geek" backbone of the whole operation... It can also go a bit too far. Balance is a good way to describe it. Consider famously well balanced characters Hall, Deakins... Storaro has his own line of gels... But we digress...

I'm interested in this notion that build 16 could be less sharp than other builds. I imagine this idea arises because we are used to the experience that noise reduction has some inherently negative effects on small details in an image. A couple of things might stand in opposition to this notion:

1. Because they are looking at noise from a specific sensor, they have a very good idea what ratio of noise to expect from what values. Meaning they could possibly tune their NR to look specifically at the blacks, leaving high value parts of the image alone.

2. As I said, the OLPF filters out high frequency data, purposefully softening the real image. However the noise occuring on the chip has not been softened, it is a random value per photosite. So they have an excellent avenue for distinguishing noise from image. In fact, the more noticeable the noise (the further out on the bell curve) the easier to recognize.

So in other words the situation that they are in, creating a noise reduction pipeline, if that is the right way to describe it, is different than if you were writing a filter that could recognize noise in any randomly acquired image that has already undergone OLPF compensation. So you can expect much better results and less, if any, image degradation.

Speculation on my part again.

IBloom

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

If that noise isn't a fixed pattern, I can see some old guard film holdouts trying to stack a couple ND 1.8s just so they can get the image into ISO2000 for that grainy film look.

Just as I expected, I might be able to get all the grain I need just by playing with processing... beautiful.

Now I understand why this mythical build16 was delayed for so long.

Oh, early'09 seems DECADES away... :waaa:

 

[I Bloom]

Jim said in another post that Build 16 will result in a re-rating of the camera.

Also, I'm pretty shocked that you weren't in the alpha, Ian.

Since it's a linear curve you can rate the camera however you want to, depending on how much noise or clipping you prefer. This doesn't neccssarily mean a change in the original data coming off the chip.

I am not in the Alpha group. If I was, I would probably just stop posting on Reduser altogether.

 

[Adrian T.]

Awesome! I cannot believe what I'm seeing. :w00t:
Great work RED guys!

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

This is very promising and incredible guys. Looking forward to have 16 on my camera to shoot some 2K/120p greenscreen stuff with less noise. Thanks for the great work.

 

[Gareth Gerrard]

Bloody Hell! I can't even tell the difference... Amazing

 

[Graeme Nattress]

2. As I said, the OLPF filters out high frequency data, purposefully softening the real image. However the noise occuring on the chip has not been softened, it is a random value per photosite. So they have an excellent avenue for distinguishing noise from image. In fact, the more noticeable the noise (the further out on the bell curve) the easier to recognize.
IBloom

The purpose of the OLPF is to prevent the extremes of aliasing you get when you don't have one! It's rather "fun" to point random cameras at a zone plate and see how they "react" and most will alias badly.

Graeme

 

[I Bloom]

The purpose of the OLPF is to prevent the extremes of aliasing you get when you don't have one! It's rather "fun" to point random cameras at a zone plate and see how they "react" and most will alias badly.

Graeme

No doubt the OLPF is extremely necessary. And the fact that you don't sharpen in camera is the correct way to do it and bold.

My intent is just to point out that this may have other advantages as well. Maybe I should stop speculating publicly. My apologies.

Ian

 

[David Battistella]

Maybe I should stop speculating publicly. My apologies.

Ian

Ian,

It's all good. You are a very valuable contributer here. It's just a discussion and you are often a very sober voice in them.

Keep posting.

David

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Ian, no problems. It's fun speculation. I'm just ensuring that a casual reader knows what the OLPF is for. One day I'll put together a rogues gallery of OLPF offenders....

Graeme

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

I Love the RED ONE Camera as I think its the best digital cine camera out there in the market without the huge capitalists domination...
that's a word I had to say before saying any defect about the image..
well the image is ofcourse perfect, but, on of the images on this thread (the Close UP) can I ask what lens was used to shoot it?
coz I see a bad Chromatic abberration in the edges between darks the reflections which disapponts me.... does this have something to do with camera/sensor/lens ??? which?

 

[JarredKrakow]

Okay, can we get some closure on this? When Jim says there is "no penalty" for lower ISO he means there is "very little penalty" for ISO down to 125, right? I just want to let go of the dream of being able to shoot ISO 25 or 50 without ND. I'm asking Jim, Graeme, or anybody who can state it as fact.

 

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

The noise levels and noise character of Build 16 are significantly better than previous builds. And remember, this is only part of the Build 16 story.

Jim

Maybe this is going over the top, but:

Because of this post, I´m scripting a lot of day scenes back into the night in my current screenplay.

Jochen

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I just want to let go of the dream of being able to shoot ISO 25 or 50 without ND.

In my opinion... you are asking too much.

Shooting at 200/125 asa is ok for low key images when you have small contrast in the highlights and therefore you can give more latitude to the darks. You just move virtually your 18% grey chart closer to clipping by 1 to 2stops.

I still think this build16 has 320 ASA nominal but handles the metering differently... also due to the darks (noise)emprovement.

You still have to use ND & filtering.

My 2 cents.:detective2:

Pat

 

[Mark Pedersen]

Honestly, the whole "I'm an artist not a geek" thing is a copout. Leanardo Da Vinci was probably the biggest geek of his time. Every great artist had to master the craft before they can advance the art. Picasso didn't start his signature cubist style till after he was able to paint almost photo-realistic portraits and landscapes. All the Red is is another paint palette, all these lenses, dollies, cranes and VFX are brushes, and the screen, big, small or iPhone is our canvas. So we learn to paint. It doesn't make you less of an artist to master your medium, it makes you more of one. The trick, I believe Ian is referring to is striking the balance. And your right that does include alcohol. Bottoms up:biggrin:

Evin, I totally agree, the more you understand the science and technology of your tools and your craft, the more effectively you can use them. I'm a former medical illustrator, so I totally relate to your Da Vinci reference. The intersection between art and science is very dynamic place.

M

 

[Bang WOW Bang]

In my opinion... you are asking too much.

Shooting at 200/125 asa is ok for low key images when you have small contrast in the highlights and therefore you can give more latitude to the darks. You just move virtually your 18% grey chart closer to clipping by 1 to 2stops.

I still think this build16 has 320 ASA nominal but handles the metering differently... also due to the darks (noise)emprovement.

You still have to use ND & filtering.

My 2 cents.:detective2:

Pat

I shot ASA 320 + Shutter Speed 1/48, S4 Cooke 32mm and Master Prime 50mm between ( ( 1/4 ) T 5.6 - 8 ) with ND Filter 6 in front of the glass at around 4:15pm in HKG in summer time in Mid May Temp around 27 C 91%.

Recording Media : RED drive
REDCODE 36
Build Version : 15:2.2.5
Zerba : 100IRE Under 1-1.5 Stops on the RED LCD.

Grading Systems : Scratch " Finishing " with CP-200 ( a Set of Four Control Panels ) connnected to 46" HD 4:4:4 LCD professional Monitor.

Pictures looked " No Noise " and " Creamy " with a Shine on crazy diamond feel and please email me to get those " WONDERFUL RED FOOTAGE ".

Cheers,

STEWART
Founder and TOP
REDHKSC
HKG -CHINA

05-19-2008, 11:08 PM #9
Bang WOW Bang
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 211 RED Shots with better optics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More better lenses to make reference images for our REDCODE Native DI system " Scratch " Pre-Post + Primary and Secondary grading.

The lenses we used for the test were :

1) Zesis Master Prime 50mm
2) Cooke S4 32mm
T stops 1/4 between 5.6 - 8 with ND6 mounted on the lenses

Audio Test with Dynamic Mic with mini-XLR input ( No +48v power to mic ) and the sound is fine.

Remarks :
My truth thankfulness to CINERENT - HKG ( Jeffrey and Louie )
Also my team mates : Quincy / Mike / Gorden @Video Film Productions - HKG

RED one settings were :
ASA320 / 1/48 / 4K 2:1 / REDCODE 36 / RED Drives / RGB Parade monitoring on RED LCD ( Under the Bright Sun Light !!! Not very good though ! )

More Pictures will be posted soon with Scratch 's primary and Secondary and final grading.

Cheers,

( SC ) Stewart Chong
REDHKSC
HKG
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