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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Build 16... taste

Jim is in the alpha, currently giving feedback to the team so that they can tweak out the bugs...


I am honestly shocked that my alpha mail got lost, but I'm trying to live with it...

Some more whisky over here please!
 
Jannard said:
I think the most amazing thing is that the only differences between ISO 160 and ISO 2000 are the noise levels. The uniformity of color and gamma is unreal. You get to decide your noise tolerance range and make ISO decisions based on that without worrying about color shifts or levels changes.

Jim
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I agree. You usually see significant changes. This is incredible Jim. Awesome job!

The ISO 200 is unbelievable, 320 is significantly cleaner and 2000 blows me away. I wish I had that level of performance out of my Canon 5D.

So... of course you know, this only puts pressure on you to release it NOW!

M
 
I spent about an hour reading this thread until I found out what lens was used. The results are very nice but it would be useful if parameters like what glass, focal length, and lighting conditions were used had been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

We appreciate everything you guys have accomplished but save the dramatic buildup, we need the info!
 
Dominic Cochran said:
I spent about an hour reading this thread until I found out what lens was used. The results are very nice but it would be useful if parameters like what glass, focal length, and lighting conditions were used had been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

We appreciate everything you guys have accomplished but save the dramatic buildup, we need the info!
Click to expand...

So... what's wrong with a little drama? It's Jim's style. And speaking of dramatic flair, how about giving these guys credit for doing something AMAZING not just "very nice."

The guy's excited. I would be too if it was my baby :)

Bottom line, we all benefit from Jim's passion for pushing this puppy to its full capacity.

Thanks Jim.

M
 
SF Geek said:
That's what I'm guessing. I was just hoping that that would be the case. I'd rather slow down the sensitivity than fill up my mate box with NDs and an IR filter.
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Well hopefully some good mirror NDs will solve that problem a bit in the near future.

I would guess that at bit depths at and above 12 there isn't much difference between changing the sensitivity of the chip and changing the way you process the data digitally. Dynamic range is still about reaching for tones down in the noise floor, the tones you want and the noise seem to go together regardless. They seem from my limited knowledge to be more a characteristic of the chip design itself then of it's specific tuning. Again from my limited knowledge.

So what appears to be happening is reaching down into the noise to try and find more usable images in the valuable tonal ranges that also have a high ratio of noise, using what I would guess to be a combination of information gathered from the sensor, and very importantly new processes in the post processing i.e. RedAlert etc.

If one has been following the development of Redcode so far it seems to be a mantra: Their are certain things that can be done better, later, rather than in camera. Debayering for example is simply too computationally expensive to be done well in camera in realtime (and adds three times the storage so why bother). Sharpening as well, is unnecessary and probably reeks havoc for compression. In that sense what is happening in the camera is all about quickly delivering the very flexible "data" to slower but more capable post processing systems that turn that data into pretty pictures. A very special gift in clever mathematical wrapping paper.

Now I have a hunch from this mantra and from looking at these images that the real magic is in RedAlert. I'd even wager that the apparent noise reduction doesn't happen in camera exactly, though new types of data from the sensor might be needed to make it work.

One other fun thing I'd like to point out is that because of the OLPF no frequencies hitting the sensor can ever be as fine grained as the random noise on the sensor prior to compression. I imagine that is pretty useful.

Again, I like to speculate, because I'm fascinated by algorithms. Please bare with me.

IBloom
 
That's what I love about this camera. Geeks meet artists. Artists become geeks. Geeks become artists.

Right brain. Left brain.

Creativity.

M
 
Mark Pedersen said:
So... what's wrong with a little drama? It's Jim's style. And speaking of dramatic flair, how about giving these guys credit for doing something AMAZING not just "very nice."

The guy's excited. I would be too if it was my baby :)

Bottom line, we all benefit from Jim's passion for pushing this puppy to its full capacity.

Thanks Jim.

M
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I'm not sure why you're addressing my post specifically, but I'm glad I could be a part of the first time the Red Project was called "amazing" in all caps. Oops, that's probably not true.

Anyway, I'm glad Jim posted this thread and I hope for many more until I get my camera, I just wanted more upfront details to make the real info easier to glean from the noise and "you go girl" posts.

Red is a serious camera company, let's start treating them as such.
 
Mark Pedersen said:
That's what I love about this camera. Geeks meet artists. Artists become geeks. Geeks become artists.

Right brain. Left brain.

Creativity.

M
Click to expand...

I spent five days this past week testing build 15 with Jendra and the running joke on set whenever they're was a debate was "Look dude, I'm an artist, I don't deal with this geek stuff." As we filled drives with ten second test clips.

Sadly I think technical geekery is a place for cinematographers to hide when we don't feel fulfilled artistically... The beginning of a long conversation that should probably involve alcohol....

IBloom
 
ibloom said:
I spent five days this past week testing build 15 with Jendra and the running joke on set whenever they're was a debate was "Look dude, I'm an artist, I don't deal with this geek stuff." As we filled drives with ten second test clips.

Sadly I think technical geekery is a place for cinematographers to hide when we don't feel fulfilled artistically... The beginning of a long conversation that should probably involve alcohol....

IBloom
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Amen brother, I'm glad Jim got all that wacky ISO geekery out of the way, i just wanted to know what glass it was shot on! ;-)
 
Never doubted for one moment that Red is a serious camera company.

Not disputing that it would be nice to have all the info upfront to make our post crusin' more efficient.

And trust me, I'm not a fan-boy.

Just thought I'd point out that while Red is a serious camera company, it's leader is personally invested and thus... may not always publish specs and details like a well-oiled PR machine. He's a visionary guy who shares the fruit of his imagination and commitment to making something great with a community of like-minded artists and camera buffs and sometimes just gets caught up in moment.

Peace,

M
 
This is amazing Jim. Seeing the performance of the Mysterium sensor reminds me of my D3. Excellent.
 
Mark Pedersen said:
Never doubted for one moment that Red is a serious camera company.

Not disputing that it would be nice to have all the info upfront to make our post crusin' more efficient.

And trust me, I'm not a fan-boy.

Just thought I'd point out that while Red is a serious camera company, it's leader is personally invested and thus... may not always publish specs and details like a well-oiled PR machine. He's a visionary guy who shares the fruit of his imagination and commitment to making something great with a community of like-minded artists and camera buffs and sometimes just gets caught up in moment.

Peace,

M
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Um, ok. You win.

Anyway, lens info would be appreciated in the future Jim. Images look great.

Thanks!
 
Mark Pedersen said:
That's what I love about this camera. Geeks meet artists. Artists become geeks. Geeks become artists.

Right brain. Left brain.

Creativity.

M
Click to expand...

Yeah - the red one camera really is building bridges between so far distant continents.
Skeleton crew meets a-budget to discuss,
40 year old cooke sp II prime meets brand new angenieux optimo rouge zoom,
experimental meets commercial,
it is really an exiting time for our industry.

The R16 results look impressive!
 
Jannard said:
The change in noise characteristics is in camera. I can't tell you how much work this was...
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No but it seems very apparent in the pictures :biggrin: . With that noise characteristics it looks like RED will become the market killer it deserves. You guys have worked hard and this seem to be the answer to our prayers......

Now if you could...... hahahaha. Sorry you deserve that 2 days rest you talked about but after that it's back to work :devil: :wink:

Thank you guys! Can't wait to see how build 16 works!


Fredrik Callinggard
 
ibloom said:
I spent five days this past week testing build 15 with Jendra and the running joke on set whenever they're was a debate was "Look dude, I'm an artist, I don't deal with this geek stuff." As we filled drives with ten second test clips.

Sadly I think technical geekery is a place for cinematographers to hide when we don't feel fulfilled artistically... The beginning of a long conversation that should probably involve alcohol....

IBloom
Click to expand...

Honestly, the whole "I'm an artist not a geek" thing is a copout. Leanardo Da Vinci was probably the biggest geek of his time. Every great artist had to master the craft before they can advance the art. Picasso didn't start his signature cubist style till after he was able to paint almost photo-realistic portraits and landscapes. All the Red is is another paint palette, all these lenses, dollies, cranes and VFX are brushes, and the screen, big, small or iPhone is our canvas. So we learn to paint. It doesn't make you less of an artist to master your medium, it makes you more of one. The trick, I believe Ian is referring to is striking the balance. And your right that does include alcohol. Bottoms up:biggrin:
 
So, I'm guessing that when Mr. Jannard says "no penalty" he means something different than "no limitations"? Are highlights more likely to crush in 100 ISO than in 1000?
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Maybe Mr. Jannard could directly answer to this without letting us speculating.

Here is a previous post by Graeme

Changing ISO is really changing where you place, in the range of 0-4095 code values, where mid grey goes. ISO100 will put the mid grey high up that range, and hence, there are few code values left for highlights. You are essentially trading less highlight lattitude for more shadow lattitude (ie, a noise free image). However, if there are shadows in that scene, you'll be able to dig further into them.

If you go to a higher ISO, you start adding highlight lattitude for noise / shadow lattitude. Say you now go up two stops to ISO400. Now you've gained two stops more highlight lattitude, but you've lost two stops on how deep you can dig into the shadows.

Graeme
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Build 16 now lets you use slower ISOs with no penalty.
Click to expand...

Now its confusing me....
 
As I saw in the B16 examples by Jim

ISO 320 is still the king.

Probably with B16 it has got a lot "fatter" then before in B15.

So in RA you can nicely "dig up or pull down" to get picture of your "dreams".

ISO 100 ... <<<<ISO 320>>>> ... ISO 2000.
 
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