Blackmagic Mini Ursa 4.6K New Footage looks darn good.

[Ramasses H]

Every URSA Model they have available includes this warning. I can't imagine them all having this issue including the full size URSA.

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/vide...a-mini-4.6k-ef

WARNING:
We cannot recommend this product for professional work. We reached this decision after repeated failures in the field, experienced both first-hand by LR-folks and second-hand via rental clients. Though it might work much of the time, it is our opinion that this product’s performance is too unpredictable to be trusted on high-value projects. Use for casual testing or try-before-you-buy purposes only. If you have any questions, please contact us. support@lensrentals.com | 901-754-9100

 

[Kristopher Colavecchio]

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/vide...a-mini-4.6k-ef

WARNING:
We cannot recommend this product for professional work. We reached this decision after repeated failures in the field, experienced both first-hand by LR-folks and second-hand via rental clients. Though it might work much of the time, it is our opinion that this product’s performance is too unpredictable to be trusted on high-value projects. Use for casual testing or try-before-you-buy purposes only. If you have any questions, please contact us. support@lensrentals.com | 901-754-9100

Wow, they must've been having some serious issues and have already had multiple dissatisfied customers to put that across the board on Ursas. I wonder if it's mainly distrust bleeding over from the 4K version.

 

[Darryl Harris]

Every URSA Model they have available includes this warning. I can't imagine them all having this issue including the full size URSA.

Then it shouldn't be something they automatically update when they got the ursa minis in; if they feel them to be not trust worthy enough or consign able fine. If they don't have a full opinion yet or feel the opposite, take it off. People looking to get an Ursa mini should do their own tests/research but if it were me I would want that disclaimer from Lensrentals to be relevant to my camera or taken off.

 

[Darryl Harris]

Wow, they must've been having some serious issues and have already had multiple dissatisfied customers to put that across the board on Ursas. I wonder if it's mainly distrust bleeding over from the 4K version.

Since the 4.6k dropped I've literally heard nothing about the 4k.

 

[Mike P.]

$300 for a weekly rental is peanuts! (maybe they're trying to encourage more expensive packages?)

Again, I'm reminded of everyone who has a colleague/friend/grandma who were on a production that was "completely destroyed" because of the R1... It's cyclical.

 

[M.Halsell]

The market perception is really entirely in BM's hand at this point. The marketing materials have done its job, the early images look capable. But the rest of the story will hinge on BM shipping trouble free units, passing the muster tests involving durability of production abuse, AND its customer service posture. If the equipment develops a persistent chatter as needing ginger handling or fiddly, then it would quite unreasonable for the professional community to embrace it to its bosom. If BM is okay with its hard work being viewed as consumer, so be it.

Currently, there are so few units available, that its really hard to build consensus for or against. Every equipment/production dollar spent is important, each and every purchase should be qualified as sure footing.

 

[John Brawley]

Wow, they must've been having some serious issues and have already had multiple dissatisfied customers to put that across the board on Ursas. I wonder if it's mainly distrust bleeding over from the 4K version.

That "warning" has been up for a couple of years. It's not URSA specific.

JB

 

[Steve Sherrick]

That "warning" has been up for a couple of years. It's not URSA specific.

JB

Interestingly enough though, the 4K Production camera does not have that warning. Cinema Camera, Pocket Camera do not have those warnings. Studio camera doesn't either. It's just the Ursa line and I believe it's because there have been enough reported cases of issues that Roger and the folks over there decided they couldn't put their reputation on the line. As far as I can tell, they always do a lot of extensive testing with new products with various samples to form their analysis.

To me, this is Blackmagic's biggest challenge. And I'm coming at this as someone who has considered adding the Ursa Mini 4.6 EF to my arsenal for certain types of projects. But quality control has been a big issue with Blackmagic. I know it's often forgiven because of the price point. But I've had HDLink pros arrive brand new with damaged SDI connections right out of the box before even being used. I have a Terranex Mini HD-SDi Distribution that appeared to be dead on arrival but then suddenly started working. But now sounds like a jet airplane. It's a distro box, why does it sound like a jet airplane?

I respect the heck out of you and your work John, and really appreciate all of the work you are putting into the Ursa 4.6. It's been very helpful and I'm still interested in the camera. But I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be worried of it dying on set at the worst possible moment. Of course, this can happen with any camera and I've seen some issues with Alexa Mini recently that are troublesome, but Arri in general have a robust reputation for building solid gear that lasts and is production tough. Red has had their issues, but have improved over the years. I worry that Blackmagic pumps out tremendous volume at low prices but the penalty might be sample variation that makes it possible for some people to get lemons.

I respect Grant and what he's built. I just wonder if build quality is suffering with that business model. I could be entirely wrong about this. I'm just going based on what I have experienced. If the build quality wasn't in the back of my mind, I'd probably have jumped at the Ursa Mini already. I still might. Just curious if people think I'm way off base here or if they have had similar issues with BM hardware. To be fair, I have an SDI card in a Mac Pro that went years without issue. I have a Mini Recorder and a Ultra Express 3D i/o that have worked fine other than they get so hot they can be dangerous to pick up.

But back to the lensrentals.com warning, I don't think they put that up there based on one sample.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

Interestingly enough though, the 4K Production camera does not have that warning. Cinema Camera, Pocket Camera do not have those warnings. Studio camera doesn't either. It's just the Ursa line and I believe it's because there have been enough reported cases of issues that Roger and the folks over there decided they couldn't put their reputation on the line. As far as I can tell, they always do a lot of extensive testing with new products with various samples to form their analysis.

To me, this is Blackmagic's biggest challenge. And I'm coming at this as someone who has considered adding the Ursa Mini 4.6 EF to my arsenal for certain types of projects. But quality control has been a big issue with Blackmagic. I know it's often forgiven because of the price point. But I've had HDLink pros arrive brand new with damaged SDI connections right out of the box before even being used. I have a Terranex Mini HD-SDi Distribution that appeared to be dead on arrival but then suddenly started working. But now sounds like a jet airplane. It's a distro box, why does it sound like a jet airplane?

I respect the heck out of you and your work John, and really appreciate all of the work you are putting into the Ursa 4.6. It's been very helpful and I'm still interested in the camera. But I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be worried of it dying on set at the worst possible moment. Of course, this can happen with any camera and I've seen some issues with Alexa Mini recently that are troublesome, but Arri in general have a robust reputation for building solid gear that lasts and is production tough. Red has had their issues, but have improved over the years. I worry that Blackmagic pumps out tremendous volume at low prices but the penalty might be sample variation that makes it possible for some people to get lemons.

I respect Grant and what he's built. I just wonder if build quality is suffering with that business model. I could be entirely wrong about this. I'm just going based on what I have experienced. If the build quality wasn't in the back of my mind, I'd probably have jumped at the Ursa Mini already. I still might. Just curious if people think I'm way off base here or if they have had similar issues with BM hardware. To be fair, I have an SDI card in a Mac Pro that went years without issue. I have a Mini Recorder and a Ultra Express 3D i/o that have worked fine other than they get so hot they can be dangerous to pick up.

But back to the lensrentals.com warning, I don't think they put that up there based on one sample.

+1
I don't know what's more troubling: that Blackmagic went 8 months overtime on this camera and are still having QC issues or that many BM users will discount anything negative said against the camera as a product of bias, malice, user error, or corporate intrigue. Seriously. At one point, when lots of negative reviews started to post on B&H about the Ursa Mini 4K, it became a running theory at BMCuser that disgruntled or envious shooters, maybe even employees of Red or Arri, were making up the reviews to protect their own cameras. Literally any time I bring up BM camera issues to a BM user, my integrity, intelligence, and abilities are called in to question.

I have a lot of respect for John Brawley. I think he's the best of the bunch, and I think he contributes a lot of knowledge and experience to Reduser and BMCuser. And I really hope that BM pulls through with this camera--it could be a really awesome tool. At the same time, when there are so many great options for production these days, I don't think there's any reason to stick to a camera system as unreliable as BM systems often are.

 

[John Brawley]

OK, well look at this listing where the first "warning" is given for not having a lens !!! I mean seriously ????

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/video/cameras/blackmagic/blackmagic-design-4k-production-camera

Stuff like not having a battery that only lasts an hour could also be seen as a pro, because it has an internal hot swap battery.

A warning about not having a Hot Shoe ??? huh ?

And a warning for not including the RESOLVE dongle ???

And yet this camera has no warnings...

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/video/cameras/aja/aja-cion-4k-production-camera

I kind of don't really care. I totally get some people have issues with their camera and that BM have a long way to go. I have issues of some kind of another with most of the cameras I use.

JB

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

OK, well look at this listing where the first "warning" is given for not having a lens !!! I mean seriously ????

I have to agree. A lot of these warnings seem rather silly. The 4.6K Mini, I get it, as it's new and has it's issues. But the BMC4K, pending it's not prone to FPN, is a pretty solid performer at that price point.

The BMD products seem to cater to lower budget projects, which perhaps results in a lesser educated customer base? If so, maybe LensRental got tired of dealing with angry customers who failed to rent the necessary accessories, and in their frustration listed all these warnings in attempt to avoid further hassle?

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

The BMD products seem to cater to lower budget projects, which perhaps results in a lesser educated customer base? If so, maybe LensRental got tired of dealing with angry customers who failed to rent the necessary accessories, and in their frustration listed all these warnings in attempt to avoid further hassle?

I suspect that's exactly what's going on here.

To John's point, every camera model is going to have the occasional hiccup. In my personal experience, Blackmagic has more hiccups than most. There are too many options out there for me to want to deal with that.

 

[jake blackstone]

I would be remiss, if I did not point at the present quality of BM software as well. I use Resolve on daily basis and for me it had been a workhorse most of the time. Unfortunately, many users still are not very keen on upgrading Resolve to a current version 12. Many still using V11. As it had become a recent tradition for BM- the latest V12 had been introduced at last NAB. Also, it is a pretty accepted fact, that the new version- V13 is one week away as well. Ironically, only the latest version 12.3.2 had been finally approaching something resembling a non- beta version. It literally took BM a full year to finally deliver a production ready version. Personally, until the last version- 12.3.2, I had many issues with Resolve stability. I have to admit, in the past I had became quite complacent using various versions of Resolve. I knew, that I could always rely on Resolve to deliver, but I honestly can't say that any longer. It is a wish of many Resolve users, that BM should go back to the drawing board and start cleaning up all outstanding bugs, incomplete features and plain stop redesigning interface every year. New features are great, but not at the expense of the overall stability. Lacking software quality control is not that much different from the hardware quality control.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

I would be remiss, if I did not point at the present quality of BM software as well. I use Resolve on daily basis and for me it had been a workhorse most of the time. Unfortunately, many users still are not very keen on upgrading Resolve to a current version 12. Many still using V11. As it had become a recent tradition for BM- the latest V12 had been introduced at last NAB. Also, it is a pretty accepted fact, that the new version- V13 is one week away as well. Ironically, only the latest version 12.3.2 had been finally approaching something resembling a non- beta version. It literally took BM a full year to finally deliver a production ready version. Personally, until the last version- 12.3.2, I had many issues with Resolve stability. I have to admit, in the past I had became quite complacent using various versions of Resolve. I knew, that I could always rely on Resolve to deliver, but I honestly can't say that any longer. It is a wish of many Resolve users, that BM should go back to the drawing board and start cleaning up all outstanding bugs, incomplete features and plain stop redesigning interface every year. New features are great, but not at the expense of the overall stability. Lacking software quality control is not that much different from the hardware quality control.

Off topic now, but I really wish Adobe would do the same thing with Premiere. It probably happens once a month now, that I encounter a bug and find out it's been a known issue for 2 years with no fix. Ugh. Stop with the features and just make the darn program work!

 

[M.Halsell]

Adobe and BlackMagic both have very sizable ecosystems. Adobe has approximately 15 software titles, BM has approximately 14 products lines, all of which require support on aging products, current products and preparation for new products. In such huge operations, I can only imagine the workload, long hours. Not an excuse by any means, just simply corporations are like people -- only such much can be tasked in a given day.

NAB is all fun and games anticipating new releases. But also potentially a bit of 3 card monty. The new distracts your from the old. After waiting an entire calendar year for a product release, you then potentially have to wait inside of another calendar year to get firmware releases or promised gizmo. Only to possibly discover that the fixes aren't immanent. Now, after a 2 calendar year commitment, with only a 1 year of actual ownership, you now have to decide whether to keep it or bail out to get some value out of the camera before the refresh happens. Not specific to BM. But the trend in general. Tech has a very short shelf, and its very disconcerting when it's really expensive tech.

 

[C. Burkhart]

+1
I don't know what's more troubling: that Blackmagic went 8 months overtime on this camera and are still having QC issues or that many BM users will discount anything negative said against the camera as a product of bias, malice, user error, or corporate intrigue. Seriously. At one point, when lots of negative reviews started to post on B&H about the Ursa Mini 4K, it became a running theory at BMCuser that disgruntled or envious shooters, maybe even employees of Red or Arri, were making up the reviews to protect their own cameras. Literally any time I bring up BM camera issues to a BM user, my integrity, intelligence, and abilities are called in to question.

.

^ This.
I am utterly amazed at the level of this behavior over there.
I really think it needs to be addressed.

I like what I see from the 4.6K camera, but I also feel the negative feedback is valuable.
It helps me to make a realistic assessment of a camera's strengths and weaknesses and not arrive with unrealistic expectations if I do purchase.
However, I can't see why anyone would want to raise doubts or issues over there. It just means being attacked.
The equivalent of character assassination as a professional is the order of the day.

I liken this to drawing the wagon train in a circle and viewing all dissenting viewpoints towards this camera as an outside threat.

Not sure if the mods really understand that this is occurring though.
They have invested so much time in this camera, they just might not be aware of the culture that has been created.
I think they really need to be aware how important it is to protect member's expressing dissenting viewpoints.

Here is the pattern of the responses:
1) The enduser is inexperienced or a noob.
2) The enduser has unrealistic expectations
3) The enduser is disingenuous or a troll.
4) If the issue is acknowledged, it's a one off, no big deal.

I used to see a lot more of this at REDuser.
Thankfully, I think it has become less prevalent and more professional here than it used to be.

Maybe because RED has less to prove to itself than it used to.
Which also says a lot about BM by inference.

 

[M.Halsell]

The RedUser forum has had some of that over the seasons. A number of threads turned into heated debates that the moderators eventually had to shut down. Not to much too much of that recently. It's really unfortunate when discussion escalates beyond reason and environment becomes hostile.

Perhaps the appropriate representatives at NAB will take the time to cure the concerns and give clarity that may be lacking.

 

[M.Halsell]

I have to agree. A lot of these warnings seem rather silly. The 4.6K Mini, I get it, as it's new and has it's issues. But the BMC4K, pending it's not prone to FPN, is a pretty solid performer at that price point.

The BMD products seem to cater to lower budget projects, which perhaps results in a lesser educated customer base? If so, maybe LensRental got tired of dealing with angry customers who failed to rent the necessary accessories, and in their frustration listed all these warnings in attempt to avoid further hassle?

Along the same line of thought, I also suspect a fair percentage of the rentals were 'try before you buy'. The subsequent rental feedback probably was weighted accordingly.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

+1
I don't know what's more troubling: that Blackmagic went 8 months overtime on this camera and are still having QC issues or that many BM users will discount anything negative said against the camera as a product of bias, malice, user error, or corporate intrigue. Seriously. At one point, when lots of negative reviews started to post on B&H about the Ursa Mini 4K, it became a running theory at BMCuser that disgruntled or envious shooters, maybe even employees of Red or Arri, were making up the reviews to protect their own cameras. Literally any time I bring up BM camera issues to a BM user, my integrity, intelligence, and abilities are called in to question.

I have a lot of respect for John Brawley. I think he's the best of the bunch, and I think he contributes a lot of knowledge and experience to Reduser and BMCuser. And I really hope that BM pulls through with this camera--it could be a really awesome tool. At the same time, when there are so many great options for production these days, I don't think there's any reason to stick to a camera system as unreliable as BM systems often are.

+1

BMC user is a disgrace. The friends of the moderator should be chucked off, the moderation is a joke. All the wrong users run rough shot over all the right users and get away with it.

 

[C. Burkhart]

+1

BMC user is a disgrace. The friends of the moderator should be chucked off, the moderation is a joke. All the wrong users run rough shot over all the right users and get away with it.

I wouldn't go that far. I think John Brawley and Kholi for instance are sincere and hard working. They give a lot. I think the danger of being so tightly connected to the products themselves though is that it may be difficult to remain detached when negative or opposing viewpoints are expressed. That is a bit of a narrow tightrope to walk. Really my problem remains with many members who seem to have no difficulty in participating in character assassination or make all kinds of absurd and wild assumptions in order to deny that issues may exist. The craziness around the whole BH thing is an example of this for me. Really the idea that other manufacturer's are providing negative feedback in order to tarnish the reputation of BM is absurd, borderline paranoid. Further, it is a great way to throw out all the legitimate issues which are raised. All you need to do is slightly tarnish someone or something and any annoying facts breaking through the dream can thus be totally ignored.

I see lot's of denial going on over there. For instance, the 4K version of the URSA Mini is extremely flawed from a QC perspective. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Many of the things LR mentioned are true about that camera. I know at least 3 people who have returned theirs here in Europe (and more than once) because of it and yet from the attitude of the many people at BMCuser these are obviously just newbies who don't know how to use it properly. Never mind that these are actually quite experienced DP's and know what they are looking at. However, I just didn't feel like having to defend them too by even bringing it up. And that is how you get people to shut up and a resulting lack of diversity in your forums. It's a shame really.




Here is a very recent post from a BMCuser member about LR:

LR and their defematory accusations of instability and general unreliability of BM products is nothing more than Nazism style propaganda against our beloved URSA because it threatens the elitist stranglehold on the world of content acquisition. Nice try with your BS response, Kris. Or should I say Kritler!

Edit: It appears the one who posted it followed it up by saying:

NOTE: The statement was a cynical and sarcastic reference to Godwin's Law because of how long and ridiculous this thread got.