Working in TV - loosing Epic work to the other brand due to transcoding costs/ time

[Mike Kushner]

Anyone else noticing the Epic work getting tougher to sell to producers in television/ broadcast, tv advertising because they won't spend the time or $$ to transcode?

Will there ever be a module for the Epic that records to a ready to edit format (high speed footage, too)?

Also have heard ad agencies in my market dictating which brand of camera their vendors can use because they don't want to pay for transcoding.

Anyone with similar obstacles?

 

[Brian Merlen]

well theres a lot of third party recorders you can use to shoot to prores or dnxhd with an epic. so if you throw a samurai or pix240 in for free they have no reason to not use your epic

 

[Max M.]

yep same obstacles, but the good news is there is coming a proxy module (hopefully solving this problem) don't know if it will do high speeds, but it's coming soon

 

[Mike Kushner]

how do you get high speed footage onto the pix 240 or samurai without the task of playing back all the clips after the shoot? - if that's the case...you might as well transcode if you are going to sit through that (or be required to hire editorial personnel after the shoot day to play all the clips into the HD Digital recorder) Also ties up the camera body if playback is your method of getting high speed footage to the HD recorder.

not really a good option for me...but thanks for the input.

 

[Simon N]

We just did a 13 week shoot on 2 epics with the sound recordist looking after 2 pix recorders. Asides from 1 incident, nothing to do with the pix 240's, they whole shoot went smoothly. Production (BBC) were impressed with the workflow and happy that the editors were able to cut almost instantly - which compared to the last series shot on Red One's resulted in lots of edit downtime waiting for transcodes.

We did lots of high speed and it was no big deal for us to play back the last take of any high speed shots which then the assistant editor would transcode seperately so the editor could get on with the "normal" stuff.

The edit would much rather have footage to get on with than wait for transcodes to pass through.

 

[Brad Webb]

Sometimes Red isn't the best tool for the job. Like when you have quick turnarounds.

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

Anyone else noticing the Epic work getting tougher to sell to producers in television/ broadcast, tv advertising because they won't spend the time or $$ to transcode?

Will there ever be a module for the Epic that records to a ready to edit format (high speed footage, too)?

Also have heard ad agencies in my market dictating which brand of camera their vendors can use because they don't want to pay for transcoding.

Anyone with similar obstacles?

I'd interpret Jarred's recent post as confirmation that a proxy module is still coming. Though your clients could always just edit with the R3Ds...

Sometimes Red isn't the best tool for the job. Like when you have quick turnarounds.

That really depends on the workflow. I've done quick turnarounds and even same day delivery - all without a Rocket. And I'm sure other Redusers have as well.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Samurai has been great to me with quick turn arounds.

 

[Brad Webb]

I'd interpret Jarred's recent post as confirmation that a proxy module is still coming. Though your clients could always just edit with the R3Ds...


That really depends on the workflow. I've done quick turnarounds and even same day delivery - all without a Rocket. And I'm sure other Redusers have as well.

Quick Turnarounds with Red are possible, but require a lot of support and planning. It also takes away some of the advantages of working with Red, mainly the RAW files. How much Color correction can you do in such a short time? When you take away the main reason to shoot Red, which is RAW, then it becomes similar to many other cameras.

The Samurai and Pix are great solutions, especially if you can create your desired look in RCX before hand and apply the look in camera. You could also offer to do the transcode for free if the money is the only concern.

 

[Nathaniel Kramer]

buy a red rocket, slap it in a tower and transcode on set... thats what we do.. Sometimes we can charge for it and sometimes we can not.. and sometimes we do it overnight back at the studio when its a low budget gig..

 

[luigivaltulini]

Anyone else noticing the Epic work getting tougher to sell to producers in television/ broadcast, tv advertising because they won't spend the time or $$ to transcode?

Will there ever be a module for the Epic that records to a ready to edit format (high speed footage, too)?

Also have heard ad agencies in my market dictating which brand of camera their vendors can use because they don't want to pay for transcoding.

Anyone with similar obstacles?

Ciao Mike,
Working 15 years in the broadcast world, I understand here in Switzerland I struggle every day to encode to ProRes if you can help my advice Buy a red rocket and a sonnet echo express thunderbolt and a mac book pro.
With this no one now claims more ', I do the color in place as the customer wants and immediately transcode in 422 Hq, a great advantage and' that if the customer wants to change something you can do it again right away instantly.


regards
Luigi

 

[Bob Gundu]

I have the same setup and transcode to 1080P ProRes is realtime.

Ciao Mike,
Working 15 years in the broadcast world, I understand here in Switzerland I struggle every day to encode to ProRes if you can help my advice Buy a red rocket and a sonnet echo express thunderbolt and a mac book pro.
With this no one now claims more ', I do the color in place as the customer wants and immediately transcode in 422 Hq, a great advantage and' that if the customer wants to change something you can do it again right away instantly.


regards
Luigi

 

[luigivaltulini]

I have the same setup and transcode to 1080P ProRes is realtime.

Yes Bob,
SOnnet is fantastic with Redrocket

 

[Nathaniel Kramer]

Luigi, we have been considering a mobile red rocket set up.. We had the max digital enclosure ( we would pull the rocket from the macpro tower and install it in the max digital) and it was not reliable.. CAn you tell me your set up? is it thunderbolt or esata?

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Yep - I am an Epic owner and sadly my baby sits collecting dust while I shoot Alexa.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Luigi, we have been considering a mobile red rocket set up.. We had the max digital enclosure ( we would pull the rocket from the macpro tower and install it in the max digital) and it was not reliable.. CAn you tell me your set up? is it thunderbolt or esata?

of course
new Echo sonnet express pro thunderbolt , whit 1 or 2 redrcoket . Macbook pro 17" 2011 and esata (pciexpress34) for redmag 1.8" and 2.5" for backup over ssd or hard drive 7200 rpm. Finish
whit this simple configuratione , i grading in realtime over hd-sdi 1080 25p, hdrx only in 1/4 , 1/8 whit 1 redrocket.
I can only tell you that last week I had a course lights.
I used the Epic and transcoded all day for 7 days , never be blocked.:laugh:
I was very surprised myself.
Hope will help.
I saw the smile in the producers when I handed them immediately to ProRes, were amazed by the fact that I could tell them that if he did not like anything that could change by Iso contrast to the color, etc. etc. ect. Raw is Raw always made ​​a ProRes once and 'burned.
I'm enclosing a photo of my desk, so it can understand the very simple setup.

thanks
Luigi

if you have a question i am here

 

[Johnny Friday]

This is a case of wrong camera for the job in my opinion...you want Prores files from your Epic, then why use the epic---i'd rather use F900 or ex1 something like this...in fact i think i'd get FAR better results from f900--i know i would right out of the camera. IF you have ever seen a flat RAW image out of Epic and SDI port...well, it's flat and desaturated and i think (not sure) the color space is not even 422 ( i could be wrong here, so correct me if i am).

Two options......with those jobs, shoot a ready to edit camera that gives you prores or mp4 or something useable out of camera OR, get your workflow down to a fast way to transcode. This is exactly what i do and i also show producers HOW i do it and WHY it is superior to any other camera with MP4 or 422 codec. It of course involves expensive hardware as pointed out by others...but i do this all same day after shooting....shoot RAW, transfer throughout the day to HDD, then quick one light color later in day (with assistant) or at night myself...and then next day i have colored deliverables....BUT, as pointed out, some jobs just don't require RED...nor do they need such precision and high quality--much the case in Doc. TV....

Simple example is attached:
Before: (coming RAW out of camera)--i would NEVER turn this in as finished prores 422 file
After: quick one light in RCX and transcoded about realtime.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Luigi,
what is your setup for Davinci? you using a BM t-bold adapter for I/O ?

 

[luigivaltulini]

This is a case of wrong camera for the job in my opinion...you want Prores files from your Epic, then why use the epic---i'd rather use F900 or ex1 something like this...in fact i think i'd get FAR better results from f900--i know i would right out of the camera. IF you have ever seen a flat RAW image out of Epic and SDI port...well, it's flat and desaturated and i think (not sure) the color space is not even 422 ( i could be wrong here, so correct me if i am).

Two options......with those jobs, shoot a ready to edit camera that gives you prores or mp4 or something useable out of camera OR, get your workflow down to a fast way to transcode. This is exactly what i do and i also show producers HOW i do it and WHY it is superior to any other camera with MP4 or 422 codec. It of course involves expensive hardware as pointed out by others...but i do this all same day after shooting....shoot RAW, transfer throughout the day to HDD, then quick one light color later in day (with assistant) or at night myself...and then next day i have colored deliverables....BUT, as pointed out, some jobs just don't require RED...nor do they need such precision and high quality--much the case in Doc. TV....

Simple example is attached:
Before: (coming RAW out of camera)--i would NEVER turn this in as finished prores 422 file
After: quick one light in RCX and transcoded about realtime.

wrong, I set with a look redcine x-rec 709 redcolor 3 with a small grab, correct it and then start shooting. hd-sdi very good.
It is unfortunately here we have 35 assembly stations mac pro and they all work on Final Cut 7 of ProRes. I am obliged to give ProRes.
I to have the sony hd 1550 studio. ex 1. xdcam.ex3. f 900 HDCAM and HDCAM SR, and everything you want,but what of the Epic as the color and depth of field, I'm sorry but with the other should have twice the length of the study would not have a sensor so great to do this. Second I have not talked about live television, and here I agree with you it's better to use a sony hd 1550. Here we also shoot short films are to be integrated into a live television.
Anyway back to the subject, I agree with you that some documentaries and many other things should be shot with other cameras without the need of an Epic.
The fact remains that the people here now want to use for its small size, for the slow, for many other things.
And of course now we have new technologies that allow us to be the fastest.
Well obviously if you have more time I would make a better color as you say.

hehe No, John is a hachintosh hp z800 whit bm deklink study IO

I have a friend who wants to use the Epic in the water do you advise me as houses and how many minutes I can stay under for cooling?
give me some advice

sorry my bad English John

thanks
Luigi

 

[jimhare]

The only way to combat the argument is stop them dead in their tracks.

Whenever I shoot I include transcoding as part of the price. Not an option, not an extra, just $X to shoot and your footage will be delivered same or next day in whatever format and resolution they like.

With the Rocket it's a breeze.