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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Working in TV - loosing Epic work to the other brand due to transcoding costs/ time

Timur Civan said:
I'm surprised more people dont use Cineform. its quite awesome for a RGB codec.
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and 4k+...wavelet, active metadata, light filesize
it really is the only universal production codec

i mean pro res is fine...but it cuts out windows authoring, which is 90% of the worlds computers
at least DNXHD can be written from both platforms
 
IT seems to me though experience, that clients that want a quick turn around want it in the way they are used to, and are un willing to get the quick turn around in the way that is best for the production. For example, on a recent shoot, for a major fashion brand, i was hired to shoot interviews with the designer and models wearing the looks.

They asked for Epic, and i recommended an on set rocket. they balked at the idea of spending money to have an onset rocket, and said, they will just bring a laptop with RCX and let it run all day from the previous days shooting, or they will have their post house "take care of it", ignoring my recommendation. Well, 5 days later, they are backlogged from day 2, and they decided to let their post house handle it. $2,000 later, which they were somewhat miffed to pay, decided on the last day to rent a rocket. Had they gone with the rocket to begin with, they would have only had to pay about $1300, vs the $2500 they did pay. I find it crazy because, the company shoots with RED EVERY TIME..... and they make the same mistake EVERY TIME....... its bizarre.
 
Dream a little dream of Mac

Dream a little dream of Mac

PURE SPECULATION:

I think the reason that RED has not put a 2nd generation Rocket on their priority list is not because they they missed the memo on how critical turnaround times are. They are smarter than that. I think they see better solutions coming rapidly and don't care for the prospect of putting resources into another "one trick pony" accelerator card destined for near term obsolescence. While the trend line for Moore's Law may be remarkably consistent, there are seminal advances along the way that can change the "tactical equation" in terms of how processing is accomplished in hardware.

In other words, even if Dragon and faster mags double the current data rates the next round of high end workstations should be able to chew it up.

Even if my supposition is correct, and the next generation of hardware (combined with newer code that takes better advantage of that horsepower) is up to the task, will RED be able to integrate tightly enough with the new architecture while still keeping their IP protected? I will leave the nuts and bolts of APIs, SDKs and the rest to those far more clued in than I, but considering the demands of processing R3Ds I find it highly likely that a solution based on 22nm GPUs optimized for gaming will need to effectively utilize OpenCL/DirectX or something of that ilk to keep up.

If I was king of the world I'd put reps from RED, nVidia and Apple in a room for a month and tell then not to leave until they had an integrated development plan in hand, then make them implement it. My fear is that it will take 3 times as long as it should before we can buy a $2,000 workstation that shreds 6K R3Ds with muscle to spare. I have no idea how to motivate Tim Cook to do so but an elegant system that can drive 4K monitoring from a wide variety of sources using a largely GPU dependent architecture could be on the market by NAB 2013 if Apple made the commitment. I know selling gadgets has made Apple very rich, but how about a little thank you to the hard (apple) core users that have supported you all these years. I wouldn't dream of speaking for Jim but IMO he and the Red Team would be very pumped up to work closely with Cupertino to make a true next generation media creation platform.

Cheers - #19
 
I'm in the middle of it and using Premiere Pro CS6, there's no need to convert, just edit natively, even After Effects, too.
 
cineform wasn't widely accepted because Apple did an amazing branding job, and got pro res very openly accepted, if you just had quicktime installed it was ready to watch. you need to download cineform as a codec just to watch it back. something as SIMPLE as that turns people away from it.

cineform is a pretty expensive codec, well it was, it dropped in price since the buy out from go pro. but it was a very hefty price to pay to have all resolutions and so on, and that was per station. you just needed FCP to write pro res, and you can cheaply buy a multi license for it. and you get more of a bang for the buck buying FCP suite than just buying a lone codec. nowadays you can get to write pro res for dirt cheap on a mac on the app store from buying any one of the fcp related programs.

pro res was very easy on they system and super compatible. i've had cineform crash my FCP on several occasions, and it crashed out my premiere cs5 a ton as well when piping through an I/O card. it's probably all better now, but that kind of inconsistency can turn anybody away. pro res worked very well through any pipeline.

these are all the same reasons why dnxhd though comparable, never had the popularity of pro res. it's gaining steam again now, but Apple did what Apple does. they know how to make something popular and accepted by the masses very quickly.




and again on the issue of working natively. it's ideal, but not ideal for all post houses. i've seen post houses still cutting in downconverted STANDARD def just cause they are running 6 year old systems, and can't or wont' spend the money on upgrading. luckily that's super rare these days, but it's still all dnxhd 36 or some kind of light weight pro res. really heavy complex projects, native can bog your system down. and turn arounds can be so tight they need something that looks decent and cuts ultra fast with almost no render time. I recently was on set all week where we shot several spots for a very big company, and the first two spots were due in a week. all uncompressed raw, heavy vfx. these are the kind of deadlines and decisions clients deal with all the time. and the reality is, a lot of companies have very loyal clients but are fixed in a certain workflow. if they don't bow to the new age way of working, you have to abide by what they want cause your paycheck depends on it.

so again. options are really important. every shoot is different, every client is different. every post house only has so many capabilities. gotta be semper gumby.
 
Jaakko Rinne said:
I'd interpret Jarred's recent post as confirmation that a proxy module is still coming. Though your clients could always just edit with the R3Ds...


That really depends on the workflow. I've done quick turnarounds and even same day delivery - all without a Rocket. And I'm sure other Redusers have as well.
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Yup I do it regularly. 4k r3d. No rocket. No transcoding. And sometimes same day delivery. And my edit computer is almost 5 years old. Thanks largely to adobe premiere.
 
Mike Kushner said:
Anyone else noticing the Epic work getting tougher to sell to producers in television/ broadcast, tv advertising because they won't spend the time or $$ to transcode?
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Certainly the transcode issue is one issue but frankly IMHO it's only one of the issues. Alexa dominates TVC and television drama production because many DOPs believe it's more reliable and produces a better image out of the box as well as having a better dynamic range. Feel free to disagree but this is the mainstream thinking of a bunch of pretty smart people. I do own an Epic and I believe it's a close race but the Alexa takes it by a nose. The only trump card is resolution and this can win it for VFX jobs or directors who love to push in and reframe.

Red need to create a dragon chip that wins over users over with images that are a quantum leap ahead putting Alexa cameras to shame. Also would Nikon or Canon build a professional DSLR with only RAW and no JPEG option? We need an integrated module that can supply video files in professional codecs (not h264) that can import directly into NLEs. This would create panic at Arri Munich and that would be fun!
 
Tom Gleeson said:
Certainly the transcode issue is one issue but frankly IMHO it's only one of the issues. Alexa dominates TVC and television drama production because many DOPs believe it's more reliable and produces a better image out of the box as well as having a better dynamic range. Feel free to disagree but this is the mainstream thinking of a bunch of pretty smart people. I do own an Epic and I believe it's a close race but the Alexa takes it by a nose. The only trump card is resolution and this can win it for VFX jobs or directors who love to push in and reframe.

Red need to create a dragon chip that wins over users over with images that are a quantum leap ahead putting Alexa cameras to shame. Also would Nikon or Canon build a professional DSLR with only RAW and no JPEG option? We need an integrated module that can supply video files in professional codecs (not h264) that can import directly into NLEs. This would create panic at Arri Munich and that would be fun!
Click to expand...


PERFECT RESPONSE.
 
The Alexa vs Epic debate has been beating like a dead horse. But as an Epic owner, I have to acknowledge the market. And the Alexa has been beating up the Epic in my market - NYC. The market doesn't like transcode times. Also, something not mentioned is DP's like convenience. Having to switch back and forth between EVF and Touch screen lemos is a legit POA. Having a touchscreen yoke that can't always tilt into an ideal position because it's missing an axis creates many a gripe. Redmotes that used to be glitchy (and sometimes still are) have lead to many a curse.

As an owner, I've worked around most all these issues or know how to handle them. The I/O module will solve a few more - albeit a year too late after the rep damage has been done. But I prefer the Epic for a lot reasons. Unfortunately, clients see only the glitches and delays and their howls resonate. Right now our Epic works flawlessly. And I'm sure many other owners have experienced the general improvement of things. All that's needed now is a coordinated PR effort amongst owners to operate in such a way that pushes its advantages to the fore.

For instance, I think the days of hiring an on set data manageer transcoder grader are numbered. Producers look at the bottom line and see a line item another camera system doesn't have. As owners we have to offer that service as part of the package not as a separate add on.

Maybe Red should sponsor workshops for Producers and Directors in major markets to truly understand the beauty of Epic and how to layout a viable standardized workflow?
 
Tom Gleeson said:
Certainly the transcode issue is one issue but frankly IMHO it's only one of the issues. Alexa dominates TVC and television drama production because many DOPs believe it's more reliable and produces a better image out of the box as well as having a better dynamic range. Feel free to disagree but this is the mainstream thinking of a bunch of pretty smart people. I do own an Epic and I believe it's a close race but the Alexa takes it by a nose. The only trump card is resolution and this can win it for VFX jobs or directors who love to push in and reframe.

Red need to create a dragon chip that wins over users over with images that are a quantum leap ahead putting Alexa cameras to shame. Also would Nikon or Canon build a professional DSLR with only RAW and no JPEG option? We need an integrated module that can supply video files in professional codecs (not h264) that can import directly into NLEs. This would create panic at Arri Munich and that would be fun!
Click to expand...

Truth be told.
 
Thank you to everyone for such an impassioned and polarizing discussion. I truly appreciate all the feedback and intelligent responses. I think its an extremely important discussion. Once a shoot is wrapped, i want to move forward to the next job...not be on the phone with an editor trying to figure out which version of RED Cine X was used to transcode, what version of Quicktime is on that computer and why the black level has jumped up 7.5% from where it looked in camera and why the audio didn't render in the transcode. (spent about 2 hours on phone and e-mail with that today from a shoot last Thursday for Spike TV)

Unfortunately the suggestion from another REDUser of just buying a new tower, a Rocket, a dedicated cart and bringing a transcoder to set and not billing for it just to convince a production to use the Epic is not an option. Also...dictating to my clients what editorial platform they must use because i want them to edit R3D's natively is also not an option.

But honestly...i really appreciate all the response and intelligent discussion. (not just ravings from fan boys - but real, practicing professionals)

Thank you!
 
What I don't understand if its simply the DNXHD or Prores driving the reason people use Alexa's, what will the BMD Cinema Camera do to that market, of people who only like to shoot in NLE easily cut formats? Is it the ease, with the image quality that makes it a success? Because if its simply just for the ease, and I was a producer, I'd go with the cheapo plastic camera...

That and considering how easy it is to use a pix240 or equivalent I am not sure why people object to this in use with a red, its like the best of both worlds...
 
Brian Merlen said:
What I don't understand if its simply the DNXHD or Prores driving the reason people use Alexa's, what will the BMD Cinema Camera do to that market, of people who only like to shoot in NLE easily cut formats? Is it the ease, with the image quality that makes it a success? Because if its simply just for the ease, and I was a producer, I'd go with the cheapo plastic camera...

That and considering how easy it is to use a pix240 or equivalent I am not sure why people object to this in use with a red, its like the best of both worlds...
Click to expand...

The objection is that the Nano-Flash or Ki-Pro, or pix240 does not work with high speed shooting. For sync sound frame rates...it works great. The Nano Flash at full rez recording (180mbs/ sec) looks amazing and better than a Pro-Res transcode in my opinion.
 
Mike Kushner said:
The objection is that the Nano-Flash or Ki-Pro, or pix240 does not work with high speed shooting. For sync sound frame rates...it works great. The Nano Flash at full rez recording (180mbs/ sec) looks amazing and better than a Pro-Res transcode in my opinion.
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...but i did have my camera for six or seven months before there was a 16 x 9 output...so the producers and clients never had the chance to work without a transcode early on...unfortunately that left perceptions which are now hard to change.
 
Mike Kushner said:
...but i did have my camera for six or seven months before there was a 16 x 9 output...so the producers and clients never had the chance to work without a transcode early on...unfortunately that left perceptions which are now hard to change.
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I have faith that a lot of these issues will be put to bed when the DNX/Pro Res Module arrives.

And when Dragon comes out, RED has a chance to really change the game.

In a year, the EPIC/SCARLET may conceivably look better than Alexa, be just as NLE convenient, and be delivering at 5k+
 
Hey Mike,
I have been using the NanoFlash with high success. I usually record my Scarlet at 220 Mbps. I know it is an 8 bit recorder, but it works great.
Any questions please contact me.
 
Going Native

Going Native

FWIW I think that RED is best served by ever greater native support across the universe of NLEs, VFX suites, finishing systems, etc than by any transcoding kludge.

Its like the chicken and the egg - is the transcoding step a byproduct of RED's unique native file type or should we be blaming vendors other then Adobe for being too lazy to support it? This is 2012 and there are a lot of R3Ds being created every day all over the world. Considering the explosion of formats/codecs in the content creation space these days any "professional" NLE, grading or finishing system ought to be able to cope with R3Ds, and any other format with a significant market share, natively.

Redcode provides a reasonably sized wavelet file that can be decoded at 1/8 res for monitoring by most systems aimed at content creation work in real time even without a Rocket. In terms of final output most projects include many elements, often composited together, that require rendering when creating the deliverable - including files from Alexa SXS cards. If RED's real "sin" is that they are not Arri, then its all a straw man argument anyway.

Cheers - #19
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Since so many shows cut on Avid, isn't there a conversion step from ProRes to DNxHD anyway for Alexa footage (not to mention Log-C to Rec.709), so why would R3D to DNxHD be any more expensive, or an extra step?
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Exactly. The same goes for any camera really. Also, how much longer does it take to encode to DNxHD or other non-prores formats when you don't have access to something like a RED ROCKET? (Which you won't have with other camera formats)

There is no reason a client should be dictating the entire post production workflow anyway. Completely backwards way of thinking of things. If your clients want a turn around time that can't even include time to transcode footage they should probably consider what is actually important and why they are paying for someone to shoot material in the first place.

Re-education is your friend.
 
Mike Kushner said:
The objection is that the Nano-Flash or Ki-Pro, or pix240 does not work with high speed shooting. For sync sound frame rates...it works great. The Nano Flash at full rez recording (180mbs/ sec) looks amazing and better than a Pro-Res transcode in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Yes I suppose that is a good point...Though for the record it does work if you do playback while recording on to your third party capture device (but I know lots of people do not like the down time that creates)

Also before playback was implemented there was basically no solution... So your right about that one way back when.. I think more people may come around to using Reds though with all these features being done on them with big name talent. Its up to us to make the workflows easy enough on them so we can monetize... At least that is what us DIT's are trying to do, I try to educate as many people as I can about Red workflows, but sometimes the advice isn't heeded, what can you do? I think as long as your a good OP/DIT/AC/etc it won't matter if your an owner op, since you will get calls whether they shoot your camera/gear or not. But it sure sucks to go on shoots and leave your baby collecting dust.... I am just finishing up a gig right now where I used none of my own gear for six + months at this point, now I am starting to see the incentive in not being an owner op and just renting lol...
 
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