Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Joel Kaye]

Thank you for the help Joel.

I might have to hold off since buying a camera and having it for two months with out a lens is silly. Unless I buy a PL Red 18-50 in the mean time to get up and running.

Yeah, wait till this stuff if shipping in quantity. So far everything has taken a lot longer than anticipated. There will probably be bugs to work out etc. Welcome to the bleeding edge.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

If you really want to use your Canon glass hang in there until RED and Erik work this warranty and installation thing out. I purchased my RED with the intention of using it with the Birger mount and think it's close to completion but it would be nice to hear from RED about how the warranty is going.

We really need to get this settled so that we can get the mounts delivered, installed and I'm sure there are hundreds more that are waiting for this solution. I think RED would sell more cameras if this wasn't an issue and smart Canon lens mounts were readily available and warranties were intact and secure.

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

 

[Paul Cronin]

Thanks Frank,

So you are not interested in Andy's mount?

I have been following the thread where you and others have been waiting for months. Frustrating when a company will not contact its customers once they have deposited. I know this will be solved.

It is also frustrating on my end to have the time and money to upgrade and learn a new camera workflow but not be able to due to parts late to the market. I know I am not alone. I will keep researching when I have time and pull the trigger when I think the time is right.

Do you work with Woods Hole Oceanographic or URI?

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Birger Mount

Birger Mount

Thanks Frank,

So you are not interested in Andy's mount?

I have been following the thread where you and others have been waiting for months. Frustrating when a company will not contact its customers once they have deposited. I know this will be solved.

It is also frustrating on my end to have the time and money to upgrade and learn a new camera workflow but not be able to due to parts late to the market. I know I am not alone. I will keep researching when I have time and pull the trigger when I think the time is right.

Do you work with Woods Hole Oceanographic or URI?

Don't know if you directed this at me or not, Frazier here...

So you are not interested in Andy's mount?

Right now there's only a dumb mount available....
Some of the parts of the dumb mount are plastic...
No further comment presently....

It will be solved, I've had my moments where I've been frustrated. Actually, I've been speaking with Erik and I feel as if this will be solved pretty soon. He has contacted me several times by email or phone. I just hope sooner than later and RED and Erik move this along for their customers quickly.

I've already bought the camera and just waiting on the Canon mount as I have so many great Canon lenses just waiting to be used on my RED camera. Hopefully soon.

Do you work with Woods Hole Oceanographic or URI?

No, but I do quite a bit of UW work.

And I do feel that it would be to EVERYONE'S benefit, all of RED's customers, RED, Erik for the Birger mount to be approved and readily available for sale and installation on the camera. I do hope that all gets ironed out soon. I just wonder how many REDUSER's would agree with that...

Example, would you buy your RED today if the Birger Canon smart mount was readily available??

Just my thoughts..

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

 

[Paul Cronin]

Frazier the last message was for you sorry about the wrong name moving too fast.

I would prefer the Birger mount and you give me hope.

Have friends and family at WH and in the industry.

I agree it would be great for all Red owners and future owners to have the mount on the market. People need choices and the Birger and Wicked both seem like they will sell well and help sell a lot of cameras.

If the Birger Smart mount was on the market now I would have placed my order today. That was the plan.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Roberto B]

.. ..

We are OEMing the Impero from ViewFactor, adding our own radio, and reselling it under the ViewFactor brand. It is just too good of a solution...

autofocus..

January will be when we start talking about these things. ViewFactor partnership frees us up to move on to the next cool features. The partnership is collaborative, so we expect to be able to roll out some pretty cool features on both platforms.

(edit)More importantly, we expect the partnership to free us up to finish enginerring and bring into production, the Birger Nikon and Birger FourThirds mounts. (/edit)

.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Andy works full time and makes his mount part time. If you think Eric has had problems imagine what andy could have... Eric has an engineering workshop and team and lots of experience behind him. Andy has come a long way quick and is very talented but unless he goes full time and gets some finance it looks like Erik is the man to deliver (just my opinion.) and considering that most of the new cameras coming out won't really accept cinema lenses because of frame sizes it seems like some method has to be taken up soon if Red wants to stave off the competition slowly coming up from behind (d90 50d m11 and ???) and relieve the masses of one big problem. Still lenses are the way of the future for low to medium budgets and Birger's mount gives the experience a lot more control and a few more million possibilities...Like focus throw? not to mention countless other advantages. So professional results can become a reality without expensive modifications on still lenses.
There is a communication problem between Birger and Red and the customers. Some of it ego or stubbornness and some of it simply lack of communication? We are not really sure which and the two are often intrinsic to each other. Like all relationships where there is mutual benefit it is worth the time and energy to devote to the communication process. The problem with getting a service centre installing the mount means people in non serviced areas have to spend thousands getting a mount installed and sending their red fedex to a foreign destination.

If Erik gets an inroad here with the warranty and can turn around some of his loss in sales then i think its in his very best interests, if he is passionate about this product, to hire some more people and go full steam ahead, like an experienced production manager. Doing things like he has been doing only wastes money, not saves it as he has seen. If these mounts were out six months ago he could have started out on version two with the profits or add ons like autofocus etc.. Not to mention owning the market that looks like a lucrative one in the future without leaving room for competition to creep up.
If the passion is not there then the ideal situation would be for red to buy him out of the franchise and continue that product, because the product is gold.
Either way, the foot dragging is hurting everyone as much as the blame shifting and the finger is pointing in every direction.

At the end of the day it just shows we are dealing with perfectionists which has its negative and positive aspects. Unfortunately perfectionists go it alone to much... The positive off course is an excellent product.

In any case its worth going Nikon mount and lenses. Resale on these items are so good you will lose out very little in the end, get a lot of practice and a few jobs that will pay for the lenses anyhow. That's what i have done, but i have a careful eye on the future.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

In my knowledge the first people will get Andy's smart mount, i.e. the Wicked circuit smart mount in a few days. Luckily enough, at some point last autumn when probably felt desperate with Birger's inconsistent information I ordered also the Wicked circuit mount. Have been waiting for the Birger mount now almost for 14 months and have even had a FedEx tracking number for more than two monts.

Andy and Wicked Circuit has been consistent in what they've said. Of course, it is easy to say afterwards that they've also been optimistic with their schedules, but when ever this has happened, they've soon fixed the estimates and turned out to be reliable. So, my guess is that will get Andy's mount before Birger mount is available.

 

[Paul Cronin]

Jason thanks and I hope you are right that the two smart companies realize they will loose a lot of customers if they don't solve the SIMPLE problem if making it work together.

Lauri I have talked with Wicked twice now on email in the last two days. They have given me a estimate of 2-3 months.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Lauri I have talked with Wicked twice now on email in the last two days. They have given me a estimate of 2-3 months.

Yes, I know what you mean, but as I don't want to talk in behalf of Wicked circuits can only say that they appreciate the early reservation holders and thus offer them some advantages.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Yea, its one of those things... You can only follow your instincts and hope desire doesn't mess your judgement up... Poor Erik had to face a lot of pitfalls though with the change in Red design early last year which meant he had to go back to the drawing board (and throw out all his production models) and at that stage there were no ground rules so to speak on warranty issues. That all came out around august. So Erik spent a whole heap of cash producing a product that had to be redesigned and then after he did that, his second design, was halted by the warranty issue. Andy had the advantage of seeing these pitfalls and not making the same mistakes and to his credit the increasing frustration of people wanting the mount. I'm sure Erik would have done a lot of different things had he known all these things were going to happen. I don't think he enjoys wasting his time and money. No one to blame except circumstance but the restless natives, use to dealing with Canon and Sony type companies couldn't handle the uncertainty of those delays putting extra pressure into the pot and also resulting in Erik getting on the wrong side of Red .
Just trying to put things into perspective.
It's an unfortunate set of circumstances and if one was spiritual one could say that god just doesn't want Erik to make this mount!
However the guy persists against all odds. I would have given up ages ago. I can't help but admire the man.

 

[Paul Cronin]

Jason very well said and it helps me to understand the problem.

 

[Erik Widding]

Just sent revised agreements over to Jarred. As this is the first version that meets the structural requirements that Jarred was looking for, I suspect there is a detail or two that might need to be tweaked.

We are up to 275 RED camera adapters, ranging from partially to fully built in house, and we just started building a next batch of 400 EF lens mounts... the next ten days are going to be very busy here at Birger. This product in the non-RED version is really popular lately.

Curt seems to be out of the weeds, having shipped some Inclinos and Imperos this week. We had some very positive feedback from some ASC types on a ViewFactor/Birger demo done a few days ago. As soon as warranty is in place Curt and I will nail down the delivery dates for the Imperos.

Let's cross some fingers, say a chant, burn a candle... summon the spirits... that Jarred and I can get these last few small details worked through.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Ok, almost there! We need this..

Ok, almost there! We need this..

Just sent revised agreements over to Jarred. As this is the first version that meets the structural requirements that Jarred was looking for, I suspect there is a detail or two that might need to be tweaked.

We are up to 275 RED camera adapters, ranging from partially to fully built in house, and we just started building a next batch of 400 EF lens mounts... the next ten days are going to be very busy here at Birger. This product in the non-RED version is really popular lately.

Curt seems to be out of the weeds, having shipped some Inclinos and Imperos this week. We had some very positive feedback from some ASC types on a ViewFactor/Birger demo done a few days ago. As soon as warranty is in place Curt and I will nail down the delivery dates for the Imperos.

Let's cross some fingers, say a chant, burn a candle... summon the spirits... that Jarred and I can get these last few small details worked through.

Ok, hopefully now RED will be able to move and finalize the agreement so that everything is good and the mounts can begin delivery for installation.

Waiting, let's ramp this up...

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

 

[Jarred Land]

off to the lawyers.. almost there

 

[Paul Cronin]

Excellent news I just placed my order for my Red One and kit 15 minutes ago.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

who's going to pay for my fingernail reconstruction surgery?

 

[Jason Ing]

How many people still waiting for refunds?

 

[Michael Hastings]

In my knowledge the first people will get Andy's smart mount, i.e. the Wicked circuit smart mount in a few days.

Lauri - is this correct? - (I had asked to be in line months ago too - but only for the smart mount) I thought they were just delivering dumb mounts.

BTW - two of my customers received the wicked dumb mount last week and were a little surprised that it was plastic - unlike doug underdahl's and the RED Nikon mount which is aluminum. The canon bayonet is metal but the main mount that it attaches to and that attaches to the red is molded plastic (and appears to be ready to get the canon pins so I assume the smart is the same) The canon portion is held on by a few very tiny self threading screws and seems a little scary to me.

Yea, its one of those things... You can only follow your instincts and hope desire doesn't mess your judgement up... Poor Erik had to face a lot of pitfalls though with the change in Red design early last year which meant he had to go back to the drawing board (and throw out all his production models) and at that stage there were no ground rules so to speak on warranty issues. That all came out around august. So Erik spent a whole heap of cash producing a product that had to be redesigned and then after he did that, his second design, was halted by the warranty issue. Andy had the advantage of seeing these pitfalls and not making the same mistakes and to his credit the increasing frustration of people wanting the mount. I'm sure Erik would have done a lot of different things had he known all these things were going to happen. I don't think he enjoys wasting his time and money. No one to blame except circumstance but the restless natives, use to dealing with Canon and Sony type companies couldn't handle the uncertainty of those delays putting extra pressure into the pot and also resulting in Erik getting on the wrong side of Red .
Just trying to put things into perspective.
It's an unfortunate set of circumstances and if one was spiritual one could say that god just doesn't want Erik to make this mount!
However the guy persists against all odds. I would have given up ages ago. I can't help but admire the man.

Andy had the advantage of seeing these pitfalls and not making the same mistakes ....

Another factor that many of you may not be aware of (this is a huge thread) is that Erik/Birger invented the Doug Underdahl and Wicked style mount almost a year ago. He built two Nikon dumb mount prototypes one afternoon and posted pictures and offered to sell them inexpensively to give people something to use during the wait (at that time the RED Nikon mount wasn't expected to ship for months.) It basically showed a way to make a dumb mount that could be used without removing the inner adjuster of the adjustable PL mount (which had been changed in December from original RED PL mount.) That wasn't the purpose then - it was to be just a simple/cheap quick and dirty temporary solution.

At that time (and for many months after) no one had any idea that RED would make removing the inner piece of the mount a warranty issue as it is very little additional exposure (no exposure of the sensor or other innards) and the original Birger prototype (shown here on a very early serialized redone in late september/october) required full removal - not to mention that the original RED PL didn't have that adjuster.

Erik withdrew that dumb mount offer a day or two later (?) but a couple weeks later Doug Underdahl started making that design and later it became the RED design and the basis for the alesniak design.

If you think I am knocking the wicked mount or being a birger homer, I'm not - we (AquaVideo) are committed to supporting all of the mounts and in fact, in the discussion just yesterday with one of those two customers I mentioned, I suggested his best option for being able to work in the near term is to use a Nikon 14mm (which has a manual iris ring) with a Nikon/EOS adapter on the Wicked dumb mount. They have mostly Canon glass which they can work for surface shooting, but needed something with an iris ring for the underwater housing until a smart mount is available.

But I also think it is important to be aware of some of the history of this saga. And with all due respect to Andy - to call a spade a spade. The plastic may hold up fine - time will tell - but there is no question the birger mount is physically much, much more solid, and the integrated electronics with buttons on the mount for iris control can be an advantage. Beyond that the incorporation of the Viewfactor impero knob for focus, iris, etc. is just a huge bonus.

I got to thinking of this in part because after doing several housings with this nikon lens I have been I thinking of making a custom version of a Nikon dumb mount where the "donut" of the mount flange would extend out past the edge of the adjuster part of the pl mount say 3/4" to one inch so that we could mount a tiny rod system to hold gears/motors to operate the iris and focus. We can't use normal or even the underdahl compact lightweight rod setup since it interferes with the front port of the housing. Seems like a simple solution - anyone see any flaws in my thinking? I am also wondering if this creates any issues or requires certification (which I am happy to do if necessary.)

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Thank you for keeping us informed

Thank you for keeping us informed

off to the lawyers.. almost there

Thanks for the reply, glad it's in play, will be glad to get this all settled, mounts delivered and on everyones cameras. EVERYONE can move forward and hopefully even more cameras and smart mounts will be sold...

With Jarred's post I do believe...

Good news hopefully is coming soon.

Will you or Erik let us know the details of the install agreement after the lawyers get through?? Inquiring minds want to know.

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging