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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

Mark Pugh said:
What's to say the viewfactor gear can't be made to work with other smart mounts?
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I did not follow closely Andy's development, but I think one of the big difference between the two mounts is that Birger is self contained, that is, the brain is contained within the mount, whereas Andy's mount isn't, hence the need for an external box. ViewFactor remote won't change this, as far as I know.

Again, I don't think this is a bad mount, I just don't think it is a complete replacement for the Birger mount.
 
Jarred Land said:
Alot of things changed since NAB 07... actually pretty much Everything changed.

Listen.. I am sorry you guys are upset. Me and Stuart made an agreement with Birger and spent resources testing it so you guys could get the best of both worlds. Im sorry you guys feel like this is someone our responsibility, that fact alone is what I have been worried about all along, RED being held responsibility by actions of 3rd parties.

We CANNOT babysit the 3rd party process... We have enough to do ourselves.
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Nobody is asking for babysitting, just some simple communication. We all know Eric's track record had been horrible in that department, until recently.

But to say that RED has no responsibility to communicate what the specific conditions are that void the warranty, and the upgrade path, is simply ridiculous on its face. If you made that agreement with Eric then you should have told us specifically what the agreement was at that time. As should Eric. It's both of your responsibility. And don't tell me that you did. Not where the Birger mount is concerned. If so where did you specifically state it as plainly as you did now?

I'm sure you do have a lot to do. So do we.
I'm just about done with RED and Birger. You guys are creating something great but you're also pissing a lot of us off. And just to be clear it's not the just the policy that sucks it's the whole Drama crap that surrounds almost everything you guys do.
I've bought into this whole thing and I'm feeling like an idiot. Thanks.


Greg
 
Jarred Land said:
There might be something in there that is possible..

All RED is concerned about is that:

a) RED has no liability and that the installation is correctly and professionaly implemented. That is where the certified installer agreement came into play.

b) That RED has visibility on cameras with Birger mounts.


Those are the two requirements we both agreed to. It seemed pretty simple back then. We don't care who Birger certifies as certified installers, they could technically make every customer a certified installer if they want, but in doing so, Birger would take full liability on any issues that came with those installers. I think some states of certain requirements to certify an installer, but again, that is not something RED wants to have any part of.
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OK Jarred. I know you guys have gone out of your way to do the right thing for the Red faithful. Most of us Birger users are early Red adopters. We are some of your strongest supporters. I have to tell you, this is a complete shock to me.

I am not going to start telling people that I didn't put this mount on the Red. It was a simple procedure. But if I had any clue that this was not allowed, I would not have. I hope we can work something out because I had planed to
upgrade to Epic. Somehow , I feel like these new details should have been spelled out more clearly in this War and Peace epic of a thread.

I still believe we can work something out. I have no problem sending it in for verification if necessary but please don't take my warrantee away.
 
Kyle Mallory said:
Thanks Jarred. This works for me. Disaster averted! I guess I need to work with Erik to get setup to do this. A little more info about the nature of "visibility" (ie, do you need to know when a mount goes on and off? or is it sufficient to say "this camera has a mount, which may or may not be installed at any given time"), but we can figure that out over the next few days, as I trust that mounts will start coming off the line before the end of the year (though maybe in slow numbers?).
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Kyle Birger should hire you :)

as for visibility.. we dont care how many times a mount goes on or off.. just need to know who has the mount, and who did the installation.
 
Jarred Land said:
as for visibility.. we dont care how many times a mount goes on or off.. just need to know who has the mount, and who did the installation.
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Ok so now I really am confused.
If Eric says "you are now all certified to install the mount" and we tell you that we have done so. Everything is just peachy?


g.
 
Jarred Land said:
All RED is concerned about is that:

a) RED has no liability and that the installation is correctly and professionaly implemented. That is where the certified installer agreement came into play.

b) That RED has visibility on cameras with Birger mounts.
Click to expand...

Good to hear there is some space left for a solution.

From the customer's point of view the critical issue is that the warranty remains and the installation does not block the upgrade path to Epic. But, taking into account all what has happened, the only way we can know the installation arrangement is satisfactory is to get it confirmed by RED. I mean, after all these discussions it's not clear at all that RED approved the arrangements although Birger did so.

Now, I suggest that RED either

i) closes completely the door to the Birger mount making the situation clear, or

ii) then enabled us (the customers) to certify the installation site directly with RED and also enabled us to inform RED directly that the front end of the camera has been removed to install the Birger mount. And if so, then RED makes it explicit that the warranty and the upgrade path to Epic is alive.

From the customer's point of view the lukewarm situation hanging there between RED and Birger is the kind of worst option.
 
Lauri Kettunen said:
Good to hear there is some space left for a solution.

From the customer's point of view the critical issue is that the warranty remains and the installation does not block the upgrade path to Epic. But, taking into account all what has happened, the only way we can know the installation arrangement is satisfactory is to get it confirmed by RED. I mean, after all these discussions it's not clear at all that RED approved the arrangements although Birger did so.

Now, I suggest that RED either

i) closes completely the door to the Birger mount making the situation clear, or

ii) then enabled us (the customers) to certify the installation site directly with RED and also enabled us to inform RED directly that the front end of the camera has been removed to install the Birger mount. And if so, then RED makes it explicit that the warranty and the upgrade path to Epic is alive.

From the customer's point of view the lukewarm situation hanging there between RED and Birger is the kind of worst option.
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Very well said.

g.
 
Don't want to push the knife deeper but would have been so much easier if Red made himsefl a Canon Ef mount instead of Nikon. More complex but on a Canon mount, i would have been able to use not only Nikon lens but my Leica, Contax Yashica Zeiss, Hasselblad Zeiss, some great Sigma or Tokina lens and more....


I wish i could just order a red with this option and obviously the PL mount.
Not all the actual or potential Red customers are involved in a fully commercial use of this camera and so can't justify the cost of having their set of Arri or Cook prime, or even having the possibility to change their already collection of fine photography lens for some Red primes or Nikon Lens.

Scarlet and Epic look to come out with this option which is great and conform to the concept of making cinematography accessible, but it will not happen before 8 or 10 months from now in the best i guess?

PS: Should we expect news early next year about the IMS mount?

V*
 
Red - Birger - Canon

Red - Birger - Canon

I am loving the Canon Primes!!! I am anxiously awaiting my Imperio knob. Even without the knob, last week we had great success using two reds, Birger mount and Canon primes. Here is a pic for grins.
 
Jarred Land said:
There might be something in there that is possible..

All RED is concerned about is that:

a) RED has no liability and that the installation is correctly and professionaly implemented. That is where the certified installer agreement came into play.

b) That RED has visibility on cameras with Birger mounts.


Those are the two requirements we both agreed to. It seemed pretty simple back then. We don't care who Birger certifies as certified installers, they could technically make every customer a certified installer if they want, but in doing so, Birger would take full liability on any issues that came with those installers. I think some states of certain requirements to certify an installer, but again, that is not something RED wants to have any part of.
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So RED folk ... unless I miss read you ... it's all about LIABILITY.

If the Birger mount causes a problem on the R1, RED wash their hands of the issues thereafter and will not cover any 'repairs under warranty'. Fair enough, I do not think anybody is expecting RED to pick up the pieces (if I recall, the first few mounts did cause an issue and RED did chip in ... for the first and the last time - hence all this mess I guess !).
If Birger (or an approved installer) does the job, they will have to deal with the outcome.

On the positive side of things, if the mount does not cause an issue, and the R1 works as expected with no issues, then we are all happy campers ? right ?

Now, what I DO NOT UNDERSTAND is how all this affects potential upgrade paths (EPIC, Scarlet or whatever) ? If a R1 is fitted with Birger (or IMS) or a bespoke mount that requires the focus unit being removed, but the R1 OPERATES FINE when returned to RED with the original PL mount for the R1 h/w upgrade or Epic upgrade, WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ?
Also, consider that a hired out R1 may have it's PL mount removed and restored back on return (not all hires are with a tech head baby sitting the cam) ... a tad harsh on some of us if this was to occur ?

For sure, if RED suspects that a camera returned for repair/upgrade has a fault that can be attributed to a 3rd party mount, then they have the right to refuse warranty repair (if in valid period), apply the R1 h/w upgrade or the eventual upgrade to Epic. Then again, I do not feel anybody would object paying for the fault to be corrected (if any) before the R1 can be accepted for 'upgrade' ... I'd like to suggest this is worst case scenario BTW. To exclude a R1 for h/w upgrade of Epic upgrade for a relatively low fee repair seems harsh.
Most R1 will be out or warranty by the time Epic rolls out ... what if a R1 develops a natural fault then, say not mount induced ... are they also excluded ? The more complex the 'rules' the more convoluted the potential outcomes ;-(

Red have created a fantastic tool ... hopefully a pragmatic set of (simple) rules will prevail to allow full adaptability of the cam for specific jobs :wink:

Still very sad that all this 'detail' has only just emerged ... :mellow:
 
Lauri Kettunen said:
Now, I suggest that RED either

i) closes completely the door to the Birger mount making the situation clear, or

ii) then enabled us (the customers) to certify the installation site directly with RED and also enabled us to inform RED directly that the front end of the camera has been removed to install the Birger mount. And if so, then RED makes it explicit that the warranty and the upgrade path to Epic is alive.

From the customer's point of view the lukewarm situation hanging there between RED and Birger is the kind of worst option.
Click to expand...

Lauri.. your missing the point. #2 is not something RED wants to do or be involved in..... we have no interest in enabling customers to install the mount because of the liability and Hassle. We make our own product, and we support our own products. Thats all we have time for.

RED was VERY flexible here, we allowed Birger to bend the rules as long as he reported installation, and had the mounts installed professionally. It was very Clear. I am sick and tired of RED taking the heat on this issue.

We would rather do number 1 rather than start to administrate 3rd party accessories. Its just not going to happen, and we will just shut the door completely if it requires us holding 3rd party hands and informing their customers about their company policies.
 
Guys, I think, at this point, we (collectively) are over-complicating the issue.

As someone pointed out, this is all about liability. And rightly so. Jarred can correct me if I'm wrong:

RED is basically saying, "this isn't our product, and in its current design, there is the risk of damaging the camera during installation/removal of the product (Birger Mount). In the event of damage to the camera as a result of improper installation, RED will not cover repairs under warranty." As a safety precaution and a means to minimize "improper installations" RED has requested that any installations of the mount be a liability of a third party (Birger or an agent of Birger). Because the mount is not RED Certified, making the changes to the camera without any 3rd Party Liability will result in a voided camera warranty, and the camera will no longer be valid for the Epic-X Upgrade. This is no different than any camera owner personally taking their camera apart (because, that is what you are doing by installing the Birger). Take the camera apart, void the warranty. Plain and simple.

RED is willing to allow the camera to be modified, and still retain the warranty if the modification is done by Birger directly, or a certified agent of Birger. However, in the event that the installation is done wrong, RED needs to have a path of recourse for disgruntled customers who could otherwise claim "No one told me I can't do it myself, so I did it, and I fucked something up, and now my warranty is void, and its RED's fault because they should have told me that installing the Birger could void my Warranty."

My best guess, is that Erik will NOT allow every Birger customer to install the mount unless he is 100% confident that it can not fuck up your camera.

Why? Because when Bob Redowner tries to sue RED for not telling him he couldn't install the Birger, and can't because RED said "only by Birger or Certified 3rd Party Agents of Birger" then Bob is going to try and sue Birger. Just like talent and location releases, there are contracts involved in releasing individual parties from the liability of unfortunate installations and dumb-ass customers.

If you are willing to sign those contracts, and accept that if you fuck up your own or someone elses camera you are legally liable for costs and damages to get it fixed, and you can demonstrate that you actually possess the level of confidence and skill to do the installation, then maybe Erik will decide that you can be "certified".

But who knows, maybe Eriks got something planned with the latest tooling that means it is impossible to jack up someones camera, and all this will be a moot point.

Ps. Keep in mind that pinching the i-cable, and frying an internal board may very well set you back thousands of dollars, possibly even a cool $17,500. Only RED knows how isolated the various components of the camera are from each other.
 
I think it would be good to hear from Erik on all of this?
 
David Nardini said:
Now, what I DO NOT UNDERSTAND is ...
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Warning: All what is said below need not to have any connection to the real world or any people or business in reality.

My guess is that there was an unfortunate coincidence after which everybody, i.e., Birger, RED and the customers have found themselves in a bit difficult situation; Namely, when Erik started to seriously design and build the mount he lived in the understanding that the mount is what it was in the first version of R1.

Once RED got feedback from the first 100 users Jim decided to change the mount. But, if I've understood it right (but I may have got it completely wrong, so this is just guessing) RED forgot to tell this to Erik or Erik did not get the message. Erik neither had a camera at that point. It was only (much?) later when Aqua lended his camera to Erik and the message of the change got passed to Birger.

Thereafter Erik made a conclusion it's not possible to make the mount that did not require removing the front end of R1. Again, this is speculation, but as I've understood it, at this point Erik did not realize to discuss with Red about this issue but instead went ahead and designed a new front including the Birger mount.

Only much later Jarred and the others at Red saw the Birger mount, and at that point they reacted as the front end was their limit of (the warranty) border. And, of course, we all understand for a good reason. So, Jarred and the others found themselves "busted" as the customers started to react. Simultaneously Red obviously had to do everything to stop anybody going in this direction in order to protect their rights as a camera manufacturer.

But, since it had been announced around NAB'07 that Red and Birger develop the mount in co-operation, Red and Birger had to work out some compromize for the sake of customers. Especially so, because Red has marketed itself as customers' company. Still, my guess is that Red was never happy with the compromize.

So, perhaps now that Andy's mount is just behind the corner and the situation is going to be different, Red can be more strict on what they allow within the warranty. And if so, it's difficult to blame them, for that's what any reasonable company would do. Simultaneously Erik may have found him in a difficult position. He has developed a first class mount and customers are eargerly waiting for it. So he must feel "busted" as well.

And that's where we are at the moment. But, I emphasize, this is just guessing.
 
Kyle Mallory said:
However, in the event that the installation is done wrong, RED needs to have a path of recourse for disgruntled customers who could otherwise claim "No one told me I can't do it myself, so I did it, and I fucked something up, and now my warranty is void, and its RED's fault because they should have told me that installing the Birger could void my Warranty."
Click to expand...

This is the Key point Kyle...... as you can see, people are already pointing the finger at us for not telling them information that should of come from Erik...and saying its RED's fault for not communicating and stating the policy.. and once again we are taking the Heat.. and nothing has even happened yet...

You can just imagine what will happen down the road when something goes wrong, the same people will point the fingers back at RED.

That is what we are trying to avoid... but maybe its unavoidable...?
 
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