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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

Kyle.

Having swapped the mount myself, (unfortunately as it now seems) I'd have to say i don't think you'd want to do it regularly. If you really need to do that, maybe a better solution is getting IMS to work with Birger and then with RED, or to wait for the scarlet/epic interchangeable mount system.
 
Thank you Stuart

Thank you Stuart

Stuart English said:
No. That's incorrect.

As Jarred has indicated, for the benefit of our customers and Birger Engineering, we said that we would keep the warranty intact, provided that Birger Engineering or an agent of Birger Engineering, install the mount.

It is the responsibility of Birger Engineering to create the necessary installation infrastructure, and to send to us a list of such installations.
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Just trying to get a handle on all of this. And appreciate your communication and clarification that:

"As Jarred has indicated, for the benefit of our customers and Birger Engineering, we said that we would keep the warranty intact, provided that Birger Engineering or an agent of Birger Engineering, install the mount.

It is the responsibility of Birger Engineering to create the necessary installation infrastructure, and to send to us a list of such installations."

Best to all,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging
 
I cancelled my Birger order awhile back, so this doesn't personally impact me, but I can feel the pain.

Jarred, would it be possible to ask Jon Sagud to include 3rd-party status in his update thread, so that there is one place to make this information accessible. This site has become impossibly hard to keep up with, and I know that there are 3rd parties, in good faith, like Doug and Andy, who are sending in products for approval and receiving it. All he would need to do is a a mfg. name and product name to a list called RED certified or RED approved products.

If they could just shoot Jon an e-mail after getting the word from the manufacturer, then it would be easy for red users to find and less work for you, if you don't have to keep stepping into the quagmire.
 
Following up on Stuwarts post, as an 'Agent of Birger' this carries certain legal underpinnings: I'm guessing that the issue here, is "when an installation is done incorrectly, who is legally accountable/pays for it?"

As an Agent of Birger, I would understand this to mean, that any liability of a faulty installation lies on Birger, unless the 'certification process' by Birger pushes that liability on to the Installer.

Again, I'm just trying to understand how all the cogs work together, so I can plan accordingly.
 
OK. Not to let Erik off the hook for frankly terrible communication all around, but I and many others have been avidly reading this thread for months, and it's clear from many posts after Jarred's 10-3-08 statement that almost everyone had understood from RED posts that the Birger mount was fine to user install provided there was no subsequent R1 damage. For many Birger hopefuls, it was just a matter of waiting, and then they could have the best of both worlds, shoot personal or low budget stuff with much more affordable Canon lenses with professional level control, or swap mounts any time to rent out or shoot higher budget stuff with rented PL lenses. This very desirable scenario has effectively been squashed if the camera has to be returned to base for mount swapping. Was the meeting documented in writing? Memories can be deceptive. Erik definitely said at one point that he wouldn't be doing installations, so obviously he understood something different. Maybe we've all been wishful thinking. Doesn't really matter as RED will have the final word. If we can't find a solution, then I think Birger may just have gone bust.

So, how about this suggestion?

Let users install the Birger themselves (if they really feel they are technically competent enough), but they have to let RED know they have done so. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of RED One owners are an honest lot, but it's been said that RED can tell if you've removed the PL collimation assembly anyway.

When it comes to a trade-in or board upgrade, the Birger user has to pay say a $500 recertification fee similar to the recertification for transferring ownership warranty. Any damage would have to be repaired at the user's expense first, or no trade-in/upgrade. If it's not repairable, then the user is out of luck. I mean RED would have to do some sort of assessment of the condition of traded-in RED Ones anyway. I'm assuming a damaged, but non-Birgerised RED One wouldn't qualify for a trade-in!
 
Kyle Mallory said:
... What requirements does RED have to determine who is suitable as a '3rd party certified location'? The key word being 'certified'. Who determines who is certified? If I can become certified to change my own mount, this issue is 90% solved already. If someone in my town is certified, that sucks but is doable ...
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If all else fails - this could work!
 
How about another suggestion?
Leave the Birger saga to the Lawyers, and go and buy the Lesniak mount. It looks more user-friendly anyway, when it comes to changing lenses. Why are there so many people that have just GOT to have the Birger version? Time to get over it.
 
Mark Pugh said:
Why are there so many people that have just GOT to have the Birger version?
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I am totally happy with a "dumb" mount (as I'll use it as a bridge for Contax primes), but if I were to use an electronic one, I'd have to weigh in Birger's many years' worth of experience with dealing with these electronics. Don't know if that will make a difference, and only time will tell.

Just a pity that it is now the second time that Birger is suddenly put to a grinding halt.
 
Mark, I appreciate your passion for the Lesniak mount, but it's not everything to everyone. Read my earlier post for a major short-coming, and a key reason for me to keep with Birger.

That said, unless you've got something constructive to contribute to this thread, go keep to the Lesniak thread. I've got enough grief going on right now, I don't need to deal with Trolls at the same time.

Peace out.
 
By the time the Birger mount start shipping and are fully functional with the follow focus and field tested I'm making an uneducated guess that the Epic will practically be out.

Keep in mind that 13 months ago I thought I'd have the Birger mount in February of 2008.

Anyways there about 80 other solutions you can use right now for lenses and mount options. And using any one of those is better than not shooting and waiting for this mount to be done. because its been almost done for a year now.
 
Mark Pugh said:
How about another suggestion?
Leave the Birger saga to the Lawyers, and go and buy the Lesniak mount. It looks more user-friendly anyway, when it comes to changing lenses. Why are there so many people that have just GOT to have the Birger version? Time to get over it.
Click to expand...

Maybe because there's some real reasons for it? Like the need for an external controller means yet another thing adding weight and size to the camera, which also cause a problem when going handheld, the lack of a white disk for focus marks on the focus knob, etc.. I'm not saying Andy's mount isn't great, but it is not well suited for everyone. The fact that you don't see value in the Birger mount doesn't mean that others don't.
 
ericyoung said:
Let users install the Birger themselves (if they really feel they are technically competent enough), but they have to let RED know they have done so. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of RED One owners are an honest lot, but it's been said that RED can tell if you've removed the PL collimation assembly anyway.
Click to expand...

There might be something in there that is possible..

All RED is concerned about is that:

a) RED has no liability and that the installation is correctly and professionaly implemented. That is where the certified installer agreement came into play.

b) That RED has visibility on cameras with Birger mounts.


Those are the two requirements we both agreed to. It seemed pretty simple back then. We don't care who Birger certifies as certified installers, they could technically make every customer a certified installer if they want, but in doing so, Birger would take full liability on any issues that came with those installers. I think some states of certain requirements to certify an installer, but again, that is not something RED wants to have any part of.
 
Jarred Land said:
We don't care who Birger certifies as certified installers, they could technically make every customer a certified installer if they want, but in doing so, Birger would take full liability on any issues that came with those installers. I think some states of certain requirements to certify an installer, but again, that is not something RED wants to have any part of.
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Erik could then pass this liability to his agents. Look like fun paperwork. But I'm quite willing to do it, if that means I can go forward with Birger/Viewfactor.
 
Mark Pugh said:
How about another suggestion?
Leave the Birger saga to the Lawyers, and go and buy the Lesniak mount. It looks more user-friendly anyway, when it comes to changing lenses. Why are there so many people that have just GOT to have the Birger version? Time to get over it.
Click to expand...

Remember, this is tricky business: Not only do you have to worry about frying the Red you have to worry about frying the lenses, afterall--they are being controlled electronically.

Now that the power is "external" to red, then we just have to worry about the mount hurting or adding undue wear to our lenses which I am confident that Erik has handled which others that are new to the game may be a bit naive to.

Connecting to Canon is something that Erik has been doing for years. This is his expertise--as I understand it this is what the U.S. government as well as industrial customers have been looking to him for and he has built up his IP over many years of experience. I trust that it will work and be solid.

The Viewfactor solution pushes it over the edge as Curt Rocks and is a brilliant guy. His remote is awsome and I can't wait to get it.

I am convinced that this will be THE SOLUTION once we get over these details.

I'm in L.A., so I am confident that someone local will eventually be certified to do the install for me (honestly I would rather have it this way anyway) Hopefully they will also work out a solution for those of you a little more "geographically challenged"--but hey, I'm a bit selfish--I think I'll be covered :)
 
Kyle Mallory said:
Mark, I appreciate your passion for the Lesniak mount, but it's not everything to everyone. Read my earlier post for a major short-coming, and a key reason for me to keep with Birger.

That said, unless you've got something constructive to contribute to this thread, go keep to the Lesniak thread. I've got enough grief going on right now, I don't need to deal with Trolls at the same time.

Peace out.
Click to expand...

I was asking an honest question. I'll try go back through your posts aand try to find the major problem with the other mount.
Sorry to waste your time. Maybe someone less stressed than yourself can point it out.
You should have spotted the rats leaving the Birger ship a long time ago.
Peace out.
 
glad i decided to wait till i got the Red upgrades before attempting to install the Birger or buying any canon lens ....
so lets get a Birger installer in SF area ... give us the detail ...

and on the brighter side !
well, the 18-85 was delivered this week !!!
 
Jarred Land said:
There might be something in there that is possible..

All RED is concerned about is that:

a) RED has no liability and that the installation is correctly and professionaly implemented. That is where the certified installer agreement came into play.

b) That RED has visibility on cameras with Birger mounts.


Those are the two requirements we both agreed to. It seemed pretty simple back then. We don't care who Birger certifies as certified installers, they could technically make every customer a certified installer if they want, but in doing so, Birger would take full liability on any issues that came with those installers. I think some states of certain requirements to certify an installer, but again, that is not something RED wants to have any part of.
Click to expand...


Thanks Jarred. This works for me. Disaster averted! I guess I need to work with Erik to get setup to do this. A little more info about the nature of "visibility" (ie, do you need to know when a mount goes on and off? or is it sufficient to say "this camera has a mount, which may or may not be installed at any given time"), but we can figure that out over the next few days, as I trust that mounts will start coming off the line before the end of the year (though maybe in slow numbers?).
 
Dominique Grenier said:
Maybe because there's some real reasons for it? Like the need for an external controller means yet another thing adding weight and size to the camera, which also cause a problem when going handheld, the lack of a white disk for focus marks on the focus knob, etc.. I'm not saying Andy's mount isn't great, but it is not well suited for everyone. The fact that you don't see value in the Birger mount doesn't mean that others don't.
Click to expand...

What's to say the viewfactor gear can't be made to work with other smart mounts?
 
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