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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

Takano-san, I believe Mr. Birger simply wants verification. As do I.

We often get "trolls" whose only intent and enjoyment is to cause trouble to users on a forum.

However, I do sense you are not like this and your intent was to be helpful.

A simple email originating from your company would be verify you are who you say you are.

We all would appreciate your input since you have experience in this field.

Welcome to RedUser. :)
 
It is clear what Takanao-San is stating. It is also clear that Erik seems to disagree. But, since Mr. Takano-San has probably not tested the Birger mount firsthand, he may not know whether or not Birger has accounted for potential abuse of the USM system during such periods of extended activity when used for motion imaging, a task for which Mr. Takano-San warns the USM circuitry has not been designed. Mr. Takano-San's concern seems to be based on the Birger mount's necessity to power the USM circuits continuously over a long period of time while being used in a motion imaging application.

Sounds like a fair concern to me, made in the interest of helping out the cause. Does not seem to harbor any ill-will.

:calm:
 
Tico said:
Mr. Takano-San's concern seems to be based on the Birger mount's necessity to power the USM circuits continuously over a long period of time while being used in a motion imaging application.
Click to expand...

How do you know Birger powers the USM circuits over a long period of time? Maybe the motor is only sent power when the FF is moved. Seems to me Canon's prosumer video camera had autofocus and may behave totally differently than a Birger.

How often do Sports photographers burn out USM motors? Seems like that's a better comparison.

And now the new Canon camera is being used for movies - can you autofocus while shooting that camera?
 
Erik, you mentioned you were aware and addressed this issue.

Could you elaborate on your thoughts about this?

Is the motor in a still lens, even an L class, not up to snuff when whip focusing it back and forth and relatively "abused" harder by a movie crew?

How did you address this issue?
 
joelnet said:
How do you know Birger powers the USM circuits over a long period of time?
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was saying... that we don't know. Neither does Mr. Takano-San, as he hasn't tested the mount. Only Erik knows.

joelnet said:
And now the new Canon camera is being used for movies - can you autofocus while shooting that camera?
Click to expand...

No. Only manual functions are available. But that may have nothing to do with the USM system's ability to handle prolonged signaling.

The fact is, only Canon and Birger engineers (read: Erik) would know for sure how USM behaves when used for motion imaging purposes.

Let them sort it out.
 
I received my mount today! The mount looks great, very solid and nicely finished. The Red mount came off easily and the Birger mount went on easily as well. It took about half and hour to collimate. All the electronics worked. I am very excited to start using it. It will be awesome once the knob ships. I've got ten Canon lenses and can't wait to get more for it!
 
joelnet said:
How do you know Birger powers the USM circuits over a long period of time?
Click to expand...

I do not know what the Birger mounting does as have no Birger at office. I do not say it burns on Birger I say USM burns on our XL2 product but same ideas. USM not designed for Motion Movies.

I make warning as Canon Interface is secrets, other companies must guess how work and just Canon can properly create pause for motor cool down. We get many returned lenses from burning. USM was not designed for Motion Movies and we see many damage with science project before, even our own science project.

USM motor very much more damage from long duration than DC motor. I do no understand why you say no, as I know true from design.

If Birger mounting does someway guess right as I do not know here of license agreement with Birger then maybe it be ok?
 
Takano-san said:
If Birger mounting does someway guess right as I do not know here of license agreement with Birger then maybe it be ok?
Click to expand...

If not, he knows now. We'll know pretty soon if people start burning out lenses because they'll be posting here. Birger has had focus control for years now so it's possible they have worked the problem out.

Is there a way to test if power is being sent to the motor constantly in the way you believe is harmful? What pins are ground and motor power? We should be able to test this with a volt meter, right?
 
Remember, Mr. Takano-San is saying that his burn-out experience has been with the XL2. Different animals altogether. Whatever lens Erik has concluded works (USM or not) based on his own testing program should be the norm.

No?

:calm:
 
Does this explain why all the delays are happening? Birger mentioned before some electrical problems. I just spend some time on Google and there is some info on burning out USM motors on non-Canon mounts. I made a bad assumption that Birger licensed the protocol from Canon, but it is sounding like he just hacked it? That is a tiny bit scary.

In that case, since this mount broke some red cameras already, what happens if it breaks/burns out a Canon Lens? it looks like Canon is not going to fix it, I do not think Red will fix it (?) , Birger are you going to take on that warranty responsibility?

AND OF COURSE!!! MURPHYS LAW!!!, it sounds like it only breaks the expensive ones!!! Why does it always seem to work out that way?
 
In my ears all this just confirms what Erik has been saying that making a prototype and a product are two very different things. Erik is the one who has a long experience, but what about those who have just started to develop a mount? The field experience Erik has should not be underestimated.
 
Lauri Kettunen said:
In my ears all this just confirms what Erik has been saying that making a prototype and a product are two very different things. Erik is the one who has a long experience, but what about those who have just started to develop a mount? The field experience Erik has should not be underestimated.
Click to expand...

Wonder if Alesniak's mount will suffer from unforeseen longer term issues - he has developed a mount very quickly, but for this reason can not have done long term testing to shake out these problems.
 
Erik, can you address these concerns? It would alleviate legitimate concerns for you to elaborate on your solution (without giving anything away, if that's possible). Or do you just guarantee that the motor won't burn out?
 
birgerEngineer said:
I have sent Takano-san a PM asking him to email me directly. If he is who he says he is, it will come quickly and be easily traceable back to a server owned by his employer. I look forward to receiving that email.
Click to expand...

Concerns??! You guys have concerns?! I have one too? Did this Taco-san guy send Erik an Email proving who he is?

Forgive me, but I have a short fuse with anyone who cannot take the additional 45 seconds required to input the REST of your info into REDUser.

I won't even touch this subject until Erik says he knows this guy's for real.

Jay
 
ericyoung said:
Wonder if Alesniak's mount will suffer from unforeseen longer term issues - he has developed a mount very quickly, but for this reason can not have done long term testing to shake out these problems.
Click to expand...

I think it's great this guy developed a mount also.

But....

I am willing to follow this journey with Erik alone. As for others, I'd rather they just keep quiet until they are shipping.

It is a two edged sword, on one hand you want feedback on certain issues as you develop. On the other hand, the customers are privy to your set backs and delays

I'm not sure which way I'd go.

Jay
 
Takano-san said:
I do not know what the Birger mounting does as have no Birger at office. I do not say it burns on Birger I say USM burns on our XL2 product but same ideas. USM not designed for Motion Movies.
Click to expand...

Jay A. Kelley said:
Concerns??! You guys have concerns?! I have one too? Did this Taco-san guy send Erik an Email proving who he is?

Forgive me, but I have a short fuse with anyone who cannot take the additional 45 seconds required to input the REST of your info into REDUser.

I won't even touch this subject until Erik says he knows this guy's for real.

Jay
Click to expand...

First, I agree with Jay, we have seen this on other threads. Mr. Takano-san should take a few seconds to provide some evidence of who he is, before he comes in to rain on the parade.

Second, did Canon at some point announce that you COULDN'T use EF lenses on the XL2 with their adapter? I don't think so and I believe the adapter was also available for the XL1 so many years of use - therefore there must be a way to avoid the problem. While it is true that Canon doesn't license their information to anyone, the EOS control interface has been around for 20 years and quite successfully reverse engineered by Sigma, Tamron, .... and I suspect Birger.

Regardless, I don't think it changes whether I will use the birger mount and canon lenses, even if it did create excessive wear and tear. I know of many situations where the ef lenses are used quite heavily in constant autofocus and haven't heard of substantial problems so I suspect that even if there is a long term problem we would get quite a bit of use before repair would be necessary and the repair cost would be low enough that it still works out much better than the cost of PL lenses, manual follow focus, etc.

I thought I had put away the DON'T PANIC sign permanently, but may be I need to drag it out again.:biggrin:
 
And aren't we talking about the motor that focuses the lens? So in a worse case scenario, the motor burns out but you can still control the aperture, right? Then you get an external ff/motor like viewfactor's and you're good to go. That's maybe $1500 additional investment? Still a huge savings if you were to try to get the equivalent lens setup like mine of a 24-70, 70-200, and a 14mm (maybe the 85mm, but definitely a macro lens too).

So hopefully burnt motors will just be a rumor that will be eventually laughed at around here. But if it happens, I can live with it. I just don't have $10-20k++ to spare to get the equivalents.
 
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