Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Jarred Land]

In that case, since this mount broke some red cameras already, what happens if it breaks/burns out a Canon Lens? it looks like Canon is not going to fix it, I do not think Red will fix it (?) , Birger are you going to take on that warranty responsibility?

RED will not fix any lenses damaged by a 3rd party mount....

I am not sure how (or if) Birger gets around this known issue, but he is a smart guy so i can imagine he will figure it out...

That said, don't call us if everything goes to shit

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I do not say it burns on Birger I say USM burns on our XL2 product but same ideas. USM not designed for Motion Movies.

I don't really understand this, because I used an XL2 for years with long Canon lenses and never experienced this issue -- and I know many others, some of whom post on this thread with the same experience. Also XL H1 cameras seem to be used regularly with Canon L glass with no reported burn out issues. Perhaps there was something specific to your camera?

Anyway, I am glad to see the mounts arriving. Good fortune and happy shooting to everyone on the receiving end. I'll be avidly following the reports of your experiences.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Second, did Canon at some point announce that you COULDN'T use EF lenses on the XL2 with their adapter?

Mike, you CAN use EF-lenses with the XL2 and with XLH1 without any trouble. The point is the EF-adapter of XL series camcorders does not support AF-focus. Whether this has anything to do with the usm motors is another issue.

And yes, agree with others that Takano-san should proove his background. However, can understand the concern despite of what is Takano-san's background. For, I've also seen colleagues burning usm-motors of their L series lenses and now thinking backwards this explanation could make some sense. So, there might be a seed of genuine concern in Takano-san's posts.

But, what happens with the Birger mount is a completely different thing and Erik's post revealed he is aware of the problem. It is now up to Takano-san the reply to Erik. So, personally I fully rely on Erik and still find the Birger mount is a big step forward even if only manual focusing were only possible. Still, I'm not saying we will not get the knobs -quite the opposite. In this kind of situatio it feels good to be in a train pulled by Birger.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jarred,

If I put my RED in my SUV and drive to Walgreens to buy birth control and lubrication products, I am curious... If the car breaks down on the way there, will you fix it?



Jay

Some of this speculation is getting a little stupid. When last I read, is it not true that the Birger mount has been around for a while, and that quite a few have been working out there for quite a while?

I realize this thread is known for it's diversions, but my Mom always says: "Anticipation is the art of suffering twice!"

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Takano-san, with all due respect, you are making assumptions about what we are doing that are not correct. Further, I find your assertion in direct contradiction to my experience, as the low priced lenses (with DC motors, i.e. 50mm f/2.5 MACRO) are actually the ones that tend to break when used continuously, not the direct drive "ring-type" USM motors.



That is not the case with the mount because we are aware of what Takano-san is talking about, and have already accounted for this in our implementation.

On 9 June 1999 we shipped our first Canon lens controller. We have shipped more than 1,000 lens controllers since that date. We don't just have experience in the lab, we also have significant experience in the field.

Over 8 years ago Erik's been shipping birger mounts. He states he is aware of what this guy is talking about, and he's dealt with the issue.

As Jarred says, Erik is a smart guy, and he's on this.. Not to worry
Jay

 

[Erik Widding]

How often do Sports photographers burn out USM motors? Seems like that's a better comparison.

I think this is most representative of the usage model.

Erik, you mentioned you were aware and addressed this issue. How did you address this issue?

With another party reportedly developing a similar product, I will not be discussing any of the sorts of things that we have learned over the years. That might make it easier.

Does this explain why all the delays are happening? Birger mentioned before some electrical problems. I just spend some time on Google and there is some info on burning out USM motors on non-Canon mounts.

In eight years we have broken two lenses. The first was a mechanical failure, on a lens we bought used on ebay, in really poor shape, for something like $20. The second burned out its motor drivers when someone (me) plugged it directly into twice the voltage it was designed for in the lab. Both instances happened before we even shipped the first unit eight years ago.

I made a bad assumption that Birger licensed the protocol from Canon, but it is sounding like he just hacked it? That is a tiny bit scary.

Sigma, Tokina, Birger... don't really think the word "hack" comes into play. Never once have I ever suggested that we did anything other than reverse engineer the protocol. Outside of Canon, the three companies listed, probably have the best knowlege of the Canon protocol. None of whom licensed it.

If I put my RED in my SUV and drive to Walgreens to buy birth control and lubrication products, I am curious...

Jay, you crack me up.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Mike, you CAN use EF-lenses with the XL2 and with XLH1 without any trouble. The point is the EF-adapter of XL series camcorders does not support AF-focus. Whether this has anything to do with the usm motors is another issue.

Thanks, Lauri. Now I get it. But Takano-san mentioned that this was happening with XL2 usage, so he must have had a device driving the auto-focus motors, since, as you say, the EF adapter itself only works with manual focus. So how would he be burning through motors? Still doesn't add up. Either it's a bogus posting, or we need more detailed information....

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred,

If I put my RED in my SUV and drive to Walgreens to buy birth control and lubrication products, I am curious... If the car breaks down on the way there, will you fix it?

heh heh heh.. good one.

Now i understand why companies just have a cut dry "if you undo a single screw it its void" policy... i am 2 steps away from just going that route with all the stupid questions ( sorry Lara ) we get, and the bitching and complaining we get every day about this kinda stuff.

give an inch.. take a mile.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks, Lauri. Now I get it. But Takano-san mentioned that this was happening with XL2 usage, so he must have had a device driving the auto-focus motors, since, as you say, the EF adapter itself only works with manual focus. So how would he be burning through motors? Still doesn't add up. Either it's a bogus posting, or we need more detailed information....

It looks like Takano-san is from Canon, at least thats what his verified email tells me.. and from what I imagine, this is one of the reason's why the EF adapter is only manual focus, I am sure they have all sorts of electronic "Birger-Type" mounts in house there... just like we do at RED.

 

[Jason Ing]

I completely understand you guarding your hard earned trade secrets... and not wanting to help the competition out. Eight years of solid experience and rep is good enough for me.

 

[Jason Ing]

give an inch.. take a mile.

Ingrates.

 

[Jason Ing]

I got a PM from someone who got their mount who said they ordered in late November.

Has anyone else gotten their mount who ordered in December?

 

[Billy McCannon]

This thread never fails to find a new twist - this latest concern about the USM motors has -coming as it does just at the mount is actually shipping- great dramatic timing. Other than that it seems irrelevant.

The Birger Mount has been something of a risk from the start but so too was the Red Camera - not any more. I've risked a great deal of money on this project so far - The Birger Mount has cost me much more in lost time than it could if it just doesn't work. I have every confidence that it will do what it is supposed to do so by "work" I mean I hope I'm left feeling that going with Canon/Birger was the best option for me.

I didn't have Nikon or Canon lens so the other best option price wist was ZFs with ViewFactor - the killer component between them is the USM motors. If the USMs don't prove viable then I'm left with ViewFactor and more or less manual Canon lenses. This downside is very sweet as downsides go. Maybe the ZF/VF option has something on Canon/VF but I think its down to splitting hairs.

What has made the waiting seem worthwhile is my confidence in Erik's determination to make this a great product. If Erik was a guy looking to make a quick buck on a dodgy piece of kit he would have shipped them in bulk months ago. I've spoken a few times over the past months and I've heard nothing to dampen my confidence in him. If he says the USMs are fine then there no issue until there's an issue.

Until can feel the taste of dry toxins in the back of my troth from burning USMs I'm going to go right on believing in Erik.

So Erik, just get 'em shipping and we can talk about this - hopefully in some new thread sometime in the future but I don't think it will be necessary.

 

[David Wilson]

Pretty much everything I have been able to do that has, in the long run, proven to be of any true value began with well-meaning people warning me against doing it.

I'm with billymc. This is a "risk" I am more that I am more than willing to take.

I'm going back out to keep shooting with my Birger Mount now - its working like a dream.

 

[Billy McCannon]

Great to hear David.

Keep working that dream.

 

[Jarred Land]

I still can't believe this thread has reached almost 4000 posts...

 

[Tico Llaurador]

That goes to show you the PASSION this "SLR lens on RED One" concept generates.

Just sayin'...

:wink:

 

[Kaku Ito]

That goes to show you the PASSION this "SLR lens on RED One" concept generates.

Just sayin'...

:wink:

Hello all,

I agree with TICO.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

I still can't believe this thread has reached almost 4000 posts...

If I'm not mistaken, it hasn't dropped below the first page of lens tests either!

 

[Frank Weeks]

I still can't believe this thread has reached almost 4000 posts...

Hey Jarred


With shipping well under way, perhaps a new lens catagory is in order.
Other wise, this thread will easily reach 5000+. I can't see interest in the Birger Mount going away because it is shipping.
How's ...All things Birger:nerd: OK, maybe not.
Maybe just replace the Birger "I didn't get a confirmation for my order yet" sticky. I have a feeling we will be talking about the mount for a while longer.

Thanks