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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

I already ordered IMS main plus seven extra IMS mount adapters.

Also I ordered Birger EF.

Should I put myself again in a sort of "Guinea Pig" role (as Barry Green once described my position)?

Let's have a look on possible scenario like this:

1. I get IMS (for sure because tomorrow I will wire the money) and when it arrives I'll install it on my RED (probably in a middle of August when I back from holidays).

2. Could be that Birger also ships the mount in the same time frame.

3. Then I get both mounts that still cannot work together.

4. I sent Birger EF mount to P+S Technik with request to have a look at the possibility to adapt to IMS.

5. They could answer like this:

A - YES (there's still a little bit of space to place the IMS part)

or

B - NO (there's no any space to place the IMS part).

So my question now is:

Should I keep Birger's order or should I cancel the order now?

Not so easy to decide because nobody can answer me this question right now without a look up at the both mounts.

Also I think the (both or even all three involved) companies should communicate better because then they will make the customers really happy.
 
Sanjin,

Are you planning to use both mounts seperately if they don't work together?

-Thor
 
Sanjin, sending Erik your EF IMS(and Nikon IMS, if possible) is a great idea, and I've been meaning to suggest that to you since yesterday. Erik is gonna be making the necessary changes to his mount, so this would be an opportune moment for him to examine the possibility or impossibility of changing it to fit the IMS system. Now, as far as whether you should cancel your Birger order or not, I'd advise you not to. I'm confident that Erik will be making alterations that will allow for an easy swap, so keep your order. I'm personally looking forward to you being one of the first reviewers of the Birger mount and posting footage from it. Don't jump ship just yet.
 
I kinda like this idea ( assuming we can work something out with P+S on the whole warranty issue, which I am optimistic of )
 
If it is physically possible, I'm sure Erik will do it. But guys, the issue with IMS is exactly the same - it requires removal of the whole pl mount. So let's get that resolved, get some working mounts, (in the meantime it is very easy to switch from Birger to RED PL - much easier than RED PL to RED Nikon because recollimation isn't necessary.) Then Erik or Sanjin can give P+S a birger mount (standard or RED style) and they can figure if it is possible.

supernovafilms said:
It is however likely that at least one cameras damage was due to the cable pinch and we need to be aware of that because that would void the warranty and cost you $3000 to fix.
Click to expand...

I hate to stir the pot anymore, but it has been stated by Jarred and regularly repeated that it was improper installation and pinched cable.

We were fine with letting that explanation slide but now it is confusing the issue. Neither party believes that we did anything improper in the installation, in fact, mine was installed by an extremely experienced, competent, Arri/Zeiss trained technician who had previously removed the old birger mount, reinstalled the PL mount using the lock screw method I mentioned in the earlier post and then carefully installed the new birger mount three weeks later.

As ldill posted, his i/cable was pinched from the factory. This is plausible even if you don't know Lonny as I do, since it is well known that a substantial number of PL mounts were improperly installed at the factory.

All three of us are firmly convinced that it was plugging into the RS232/Lens Port that elicited the problem. Statistically and practically speaking it doesn't add up that 3 out of the three failed after a couple hours of use through the i/cable pinch - yet the explanation of each camera plugging into the Lens port and the power surge at lens change/calibration does make sense, particularly since it appears there were similar issues with phantom power on the audio.

Noone I have spoken to (and it is quite a number that have contacted me) cares whether RED improperly installed the PL mounts or whether the RS232 circuit is poorly protected (not saying it is - we can just set that aside) because the PL mount screw problem can be gotten around easily as I have described, and Erik has admitted that for a brief period they drew as much power as the circuit could supply and now that it is recognized as a problem has corrected that AND moved the power source to the higher rated and heavier protected auxiliary power port (and if we had to it would be easy just to battery power the damn thing).

What we do care about is being told that we can't do a simple mechanical removal of the pl mount - which is the same issue for the announced NEW IMS - and have some way, either by the factory or a decent technician through a service bulletin to have the i/data cable removed so it never again could be a problem and then it is a purely mechanical task to go from PL to Birger or Birger to IMS or PL to IMS or whatever.

We just want to be able to use THE MOST SOPHISTICATED, VERSATILE OPTICS ON THE PLANET - THOSE FROM CANON, NIKON, SIGMA, etc.. While pl cine lenses may have SLIIIIIIIIIGHTLY better optics NONE OF THEM COME CLOSE in terms of cost effectiveness, built-in image stabilization, and built-in remote controllable iris and focus motors. So it seems crazy to have this forward looking DIGITAL Cinema Camera be so firmly stuck in the analog, mechanical past.

ldill said:
The i-cable is very tricky. Even though Red indicated our board fried because of operator error and a short , I am sceptical. As others will soon see, when you remove your mount look closely at the wires, you will see factory direct the jacket on the wires most likely will have a pinch already. I noticed it and inspected it but didn't see any exposed copper. The Birger install instructions actually illustrate how to insert this i-cable into a shrink wrap which makes it near impossible to pinch a wire while the Birger is mounted. The 1/100,000 second spike theory makes total sense to me. I don't really care who's fault it is. It is secondary. I can see I am not alone, I am glad others believe in Birger. I also believe in Red and know they didn't get this far by ignoring customer requests. I am sure they are paying attention and I look forward to seeing their solution in the near future.
Click to expand...

EDIT PS, Jarred Just noticed your post. You seem pretty optimistic today, so maybe you can work it out with Birger too. The only PL lens my budget allowed is the 12mm I traded a housing for, to rent out with the housings - nice for underwater but it isn't a very good lens for shooting the hot girls on South Beach.
 
Jarred Land said:
I kinda like this idea ( assuming we can work something out with P+S on the whole warranty issue, which I am optimistic of )
Click to expand...

All right here we go, now we see a light at the end of the tunnel, thanks
 
The Interchangeable Mount System will allow you to use:
- all available IMS Mounts from P+S Technik,
- optical viewfinder with B4 mount (coming soon)
- optical viewfinder with PL mount (coming end of this year)
- Field Collimator (coming end of this year)

The optical viewfinder sounds cool....
 
Jarred Land said:
I kinda like this idea ( assuming we can work something out with P+S on the whole warranty issue, which I am optimistic of )
Click to expand...

This is a quote from P+S technik:

The replacement of the whole RED front is not needed anymore. Due the fact that only the original RED mount needs to be replaced by the P+S Technik IMS, no warranty limitations will be damaged. If needed the IMS can also be re-exchanged to the original RED One mount. The thermically characteristics of the RED One front will stay the same after this IMS modification.
The simplicity of this exchange makes the shipping the RED One to P+S Technik unnecessary. It can be done by everybody with a technical basic understanding.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
I hate to stir the pot anymore, but it has been stated by Jarred and regularly repeated that it was improper installation and pinched cable.

We were fine with letting that explanation slide but now it is confusing the issue. Neither party believes that we did anything improper in the installation, in fact, mine was installed by an extremely experienced, competent, Arri/Zeiss trained technician who had previously removed the old birger mount, reinstalled the PL mount using the lock screw method I mentioned in the earlier post and then carefully installed the new birger mount three weeks later.
Click to expand...

I hate to disagree with you.. but you only have the story half right. The FIRE that started from the i-pin cable shorting out kinda points out something bad happening apart from just the overload. Also, It was clear that the guidlines the Erik called out for wrapping and protecting the cable were not followed... pointing to your technician.

I dont mean to call you out man... you know we love you, but your posts are more and more trying to point the finger at RED..

jaadgy akanni said:
This is a quote from P+S technik:

The replacement of the whole RED front is not needed anymore. Due the fact that only the original RED mount needs to be replaced by the P+S Technik IMS, no warranty limitations will be damaged. If needed the IMS can also be re-exchanged to the original RED One mount. The thermically characteristics of the RED One front will stay the same after this IMS modification.
The simplicity of this exchange makes the shipping the RED One to P+S Technik unnecessary. It can be done by everybody with a technical basic understanding.
Click to expand...

This came up already.

Just so everyone is clear... The only people that can tell you that something does not void the RED warranty after disassembly is RED.
 
jaadgy akanni said:
This is a quote from P+S technik:

The replacement of the whole RED front is not needed anymore. Due the fact that only the original RED mount needs to be replaced by the P+S Technik IMS, no warranty limitations will be damaged. If needed the IMS can also be re-exchanged to the original RED One mount. The thermically characteristics of the RED One front will stay the same after this IMS modification.
The simplicity of this exchange makes the shipping the RED One to P+S Technik unnecessary. It can be done by everybody with a technical basic understanding.
Click to expand...

I saw that too but assumed that statement was made before the warranty issue of last week.

I might be wrong.

By the way I have emailed P+S but if anyone knows the price of there mount please post it.

This would be a good solution, but it will come at a additional cost.
 
Thanks for the clarification Jared,

Can you tell us what the limit of our maximum liability would be if we went forward with the Birger mount? I have heard the $3000 sum tossed around a few times. Is that an accurate maximum. I am trying to determine what is a fair risk for having a working camera in the near future. I would prefer that the warrantee remain in tact but if we are looking at another lengthy delay, it is something we might consider.

Thanks for your input.
 
Thor Wixom said:
Sanjin,

Are you planning to use both mounts seperately if they don't work together?

-Thor
Click to expand...

If IMS works well I stay with it, no doubts.

jaadgy akanni said:
Sanjin, sending Erik your EF IMS(and Nikon IMS, if possible) is a great idea, and I've been meaning to suggest that to you since yesterday. Erik is gonna be making the necessary changes to his mount, so this would be an opportune moment for him to examine the possibility or impossibility of changing it to fit the IMS system. Now, as far as whether you should cancel your Birger order or not, I'd advise you not to. I'm confident that Erik will be making alterations that will allow for an easy swap, so keep your order. I'm personally looking forward to you being one of the first reviewers of the Birger mount and posting footage from it. Don't jump ship just yet.
Click to expand...

I'm still not jumping out of the ship (Birger's).

Jarred Land said:
I kinda like this idea ( assuming we can work something out with P+S on the whole warranty issue, which I am optimistic of )
Click to expand...

I would like to propose my schedule:

1. I fly to Spain (Ibiza+Formentera) on Saturday, July 12 and back on Saturday August 9 (4 weeks I know to long but I'm a monster).

2. In between P+S Technik will ship to me IMS base and plus seven different IMS mount adapters (PL, Nikon Pro, Canon EF dumb, Canon FD, Zeiss Contax, Leica -R and Leica-M).

3. Birger could also ship his mount to me in between.

4. I could install IMS myself. Or I will be in München at August 13

(because of another business) and also drive to pass by Ottobrunn

(a wider suburb part of München in south on a way to Salzburg - mine route anyway).

Then I could bring RED, IMS and Birger to P+S Technik workshop for a look up.

So right now I cannot confirm an appointment with P+S Technik.

I'll try out to call them tomorrow anyway.

It means to get the first info if all work well between IMS and Birger would be in about 6-7 weeks from now.

Only a strong patience could save us now.

Or other possibility is that Erik do a SMART step, get a BRAVE, call them, talk to and send his mount to P+S for look up that could accelerate all the process.

Or he can order one IMS Canon EF dumb to have a look up himself about possibility to adapt his design of Birger EF to IMS.

At the moment I do not see and have another idea.
 
Tokina 11-16 2.8

Tokina 11-16 2.8

Here is a still from a Red shoot using the original Birger prototype with build 15 and the new Tokina 11-16 2.8. This lens is less than $600 street.
 
The Birger Mount Saga has become a thorn in the side of us all.

Why doesn't Red just make some factory standard IMS mount REDS with an accessory port by the lens mount that can handle all the power requirements.

Then Birger can make their mounts with minor adjustments.

P&S gets a cut, Birger gets a cut, Red gets a cut. Everybody gets what they want. RED will end up selling twice as many cameras.

get some camera techs around the world in on modifying current cameras. once you get it modified you can easily change to any mount you want so its worth the wait.

we can all use any mount of our hearts desire.

this is worth waiting for.
 
Adam Levins said:
Man I did it again... I keep posting at the same time as Jarred. Sorry.
Click to expand...

no worries man... i dont mean to sound grumpy im just kinda getting tired of this whole issue. There seems to be a few people that seem to have alternative motives and keep pointing at RED, and I just dont know how many times I can say the same thing.

The good thing is most of you just want a Solution and do not care where its from, and that is the same viewpoint we have... the faster that happens, the better off everyone will be.
 
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