Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Lauri Kettunen]

If there was melted insulation or an actual fire, I believe the only plausible source is DC current overload, most commonly a short.

Yeah, if there was a real fire, it means the amount of energy had to be rather high, and if so, this does not sound like induction. Otherwise, grounding problems are often rather difficult to chase. What puzzles me with the i-cable short hypothesis is that likely the same problem appeared with the Nikon mount.

Mike formulates his words so carefully, that it is quite a pleasure to read the posts. They are like literature among spontane reactions.

 

[Lars Xang]

Lauri I - really - really - really - hope you are married to Mike - because your nose is so brown right now i can smell it from here.

 

[Gary Stone]

not from where i sit. it looks like camaraderie and an attempt to solve a problem that has a lot of folks worried right now.

nice things need to be said to keep the heat down on this issue.

 

[Jarred Land]

Play nice kids..

 

[Jason Ing]

jarred,

not sure if this was asked and answered... but can i take delivery of the birger mount and then pay someone at red to mount it for me to not void the warranty? i'll drive down if i have to... just want my mount so i can shoot something... please!!!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

My two bits throughout this thread have been:

1) don't let your camera be a doorstep, while your warranty trickles away, these cameras are a new technology and, as such, need to be tested and worked.

2) I'm concerned about the customer service follow through on this mount, once it is engineered.

...but I didn't think that both of these chickens would come home to roost quite this fast.

I hope that RED supports the development of a Canon EF mount--it is a game changer, and many owners, myself included, bought cameras believing that RED was 100% behind the idea of universal lens support.

 

[Rami Mustakim]

Jarred,

Couldn't Red do something about all this?
Am I stupid thinking you could call both companies (IMS and Birger) and work things out for them... And for us!
Because while they are both offering beautiful solutions (even better if you succeed to mix them both) they don't know very well IMHO how to communicate.
As I understand the warranty situation, Red will have to do some tests to see how the installation of those mounts void warranty or not.
So one day you'll have to talk to them. Am I right?
Couldn't this day be sooner?
I know you've got plenty of work. Much more than I can imagine.
And I know those products come from third companies.
But as those mounts mean so much for some of your customers maybe it's also your (Red's) interest to help finding a good solution.
What do you think?

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Lara, funny you My name comes from the same origin as Larry --Laurentius. So, it's a male name. It's common that Northren Americans believe it's a female name. My wife will have a laugh when I show her your comment.

Otherwise, it's just the urgent need I share with Mike to get an/the EF-mount. When you have important business to do and believe finally, after several months of waiting you'll get the mount you desperately need, and then find yourself in this kind of muddy waters of warranty, is quite an disappointment.

My concern is that no other company than Birger really has the experience to build a realiable electric control for the EF-lenses in the near future. Just think of the pins making the electric connection between the mount and the lens. Designing and manufacturing ones that work be it hot or extremely cold, dry or humid takes already some time. In addition, creating a system that works with some lenses and a one that works with all EF-lenses are two different things. As the question is of reverse engineering, there's no short cut to save time. Erik has produced EF-mounts for a long time, so he does not need to climb the learning curve anymore.

In this respect I find Mike's posts helpful in making progress. Hopefully I'm just pessimistic but can't avoid the feeling that hoping for a 4th party solution in the near future is wishful thinking. However, that's what some people said about Red One at the first place, so one never knows.

What I did hope from Red was an action that showed with no hesitation that they are very serious with the EF-mount, be it made by 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or what ever partner in the same manner as it was clear Jim was very serious with Red One at the first place. It's the lukewarm attitude and tone of wishful thinking (or is it in the eye of the beholder?) which troubles me and makes me to hesitate whether I should build any plans around the EF-mount. I have business that I have to do now with the camera. The question is what will be available in a reasonable time. Giving up of plans that depend on the EF-mount is obviously frustrating.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Lara, funny you My name comes from the same origin as Larry --Laurentius. So, it's a male name. It's common that Northren Americans believe it's a female name. My wife will have a laugh when I show her your comment.

Otherwise, it's just the urgent need I share with Mike to get an/the EF-mount. When you have important business to do and believe finally, after several months of waiting you'll get the mount you desperately need, and then find yourself in this kind of muddy waters of warranty, is quite an disappointment.

My concern is that no other company than Birger really has the experience to build a realiable electric control for the EF-lenses in the near future. Just think of the pins making the electric connection between the mount and the lens. Designing and manufacturing ones that work be it hot or extremely cold, dry or humid takes already some time. In addition, creating a system that works with some lenses and a one that works with all EF-lenses are two different things. As the question is of reverse engineering, there's no short cut to save time. Erik has produced EF-mounts for a long time, so he does not need to climb the learning curve anymore.

In this respect I find Mike's posts helpful in making progress. Hopefully I'm just pessimistic but can't avoid the feeling that hoping for a 4th party solution in the near future is wishful thinking. However, that's what some people said about Red One at the first place, so one never knows.

What I did hope from Red was an action that showed with no hesitation that they are very serious with the EF-mount, be it made by 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or what ever partner in the same manner as it was clear Jim was very serious with Red One at the first place. It's the lukewarm attitude and tone of wishful thinking (or is it in the eye of the beholder?) which troubles me and makes me to hesitate whether I should build any plans around the EF-mount. I have business that I have to do now with the camera. The question is what will be available in a reasonable time. Giving up of plans that depend on the EF-mount is obviously frustrating.

We should finally know now if Biger EF mount solved a "circuit power shock" issue that "killed" three test RED cameras.

About warranty issues connected with taking off the RED PL mount we should not discuss any more because it is anyway in the RED hands to make their own decision and not ours.

For Erik would be the best to show us here not the pictures but a footage for example how one of Canon EF L lenses (zooms or primes) getting object in and out of focus or something similar in that way that we can see a beauty of Birger's real world shot. But no Youtube movies, more like a 1K or even bigger because we are dealing with those formats mostly.

 

[Andrew M.]

Yeah, if there was a real fire, it means the amount of energy had to be rather high, and if so, this does not sound like induction. Otherwise, grounding problems are often rather difficult to chase. What puzzles me with the i-cable short hypothesis is that likely the same problem appeared with the Nikon mount.

Mike formulates his words so carefully, that it is quite a pleasure to read the posts. They are like literature among spontane reactions.

RED did disconnect (removed PL mount contacts) of this i/ cable for the reason.

i/ interface is work in progress so it is there but not completely ready for public use and not fool prove, as I understand it.

If it would be well designed and finished product probably what happened will never happened (Fire as our Fire Chief reported) Birger mount is also in its first batch stage so we all have to move with caution. It is experiment in progress, the question is who is to take the risk exposure.

The AUX power port that Birger mount will be using now will self shut down just in case if Birger mount will be power surge hungry. How well AUX port is designed for self shut down we don't know yet.

If Birger mount was working (almost) from RS232 port power then AUX port can deliver many times more.

I don't think any external power for Birger mount will be desired or practical.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

More testing less speculating...

 

[Joe Vinson]

Lara, funny you My name comes from the same origin as Larry --Laurentius. So, it's a male name. It's common that Northren Americans believe it's a female name. My wife will have a laugh when I show her your comment.

Yeah, not too many dudes end their name with an 'i' in our part of the world. Oh, you Finns with your wacky Uralic language base...

For Erik would be the best to show us here not the pictures but a footage for example how one of Canon EF L lenses (zooms or primes) getting object in and out of focus or something similar in that way that we can see a beauty of Birger's real world shot. But no Youtube movies, more like a 1K or even bigger because we are dealing with those formats mostly.

Man, I've been dying for some footage!

 

[Frank Weeks]

Man, I've been dying for some footage!

The great thing is, many of us have seen the results (at NAB) in person on multiple lens. The mount appeared to work very well with the lens present.

FWIW I wouldn't mind seeing some more results if it doesn't slow down the process. Keep at it Erik.

 

[Mark B.]

Ok, so I'm a bit confused about what's happening now. If anyone can answer these questions I'd appreciate it.

a) Is Birger currently modifying the mount so that it won't fry the camera, or did they already fix that by changing the power source to the aux port?
b) Is Birger modifying the mount so it won't require removal of the Red backfocus assembly, or is the Birger mount keeping the same deep dimensions that will require full replacement of Red's mount?
c) Is Red saying that we can change our own lens mounts (without breaking warranty) once Birger finishes whatever changes are being made?

 

[Tico Llaurador]

Lowkus, I'm afraid there are no answers to your questions.

Yet.

 

[Gary Stone]

Ok, so I'm a bit confused about what's happening now. If anyone can answer these questions I'd appreciate it.

a) Is Birger currently modifying the mount so that it won't fry the camera, or did they already fix that by changing the power source to the aux port?
b) Is Birger modifying the mount so it won't require removal of the Red backfocus assembly, or is the Birger mount keeping the same deep dimensions that will require full replacement of Red's mount?
c) Is Red saying that we can change our own lens mounts (without breaking warranty) once Birger finishes whatever changes are being made?

the answers to a) is unknown, but it's a safe assumption that birger is working hard not to nuke red bodies

erik has said that it's impossible to make his mount work without removing the backfocus assembly so i think b) is a no. which in turn makes c) a no at this point because taking the backfocus assembly off voids the warranty.

last i heard they were talking about having birger install the mount, which means shipping it to them and paying the labor.

 

[David Nardini]

Ok, so I'm a bit confused about what's happening now. If anyone can answer these questions I'd appreciate it.

a) Is Birger currently modifying the mount so that it won't fry the camera, or did they already fix that by changing the power source to the aux port?
b) Is Birger modifying the mount so it won't require removal of the Red backfocus assembly, or is the Birger mount keeping the same deep dimensions that will require full replacement of Red's mount?
c) Is Red saying that we can change our own lens mounts (without breaking warranty) once Birger finishes whatever changes are being made?

You are not the only one !

Many of the recent posts are too vague, elusive and totally lacking in real content ... it's all really very very poor. Given the history to date I just cannot see this being resolved in a 'few' days or weeks. The silence (AGAIN) is just incredible.

Mike / Aqua : Erik might have designed the first Nikon mount BUT Doug replied to my emails and telephone calls and sold/shipped a unit to me in a matter of 3 weeks.

I find it staggering that after the NAB2007 announcement, we are now at a point in time where what Birger has designed conflicts with RED policies in terms of warranty etc (whatever the cause). After an announcement that reads [April 15, 2007 - RED Digital Cinema Inc. and Birger Engineering, Inc. announced today an agreement to develop and market a remotely controllable Canon EOS lens mount for the RED ONE Digital Cinema camera...] ... how can communication have been so bad that +12 months down the line there is no solution ?

Hmmm ... I think I know the answer but I'll keep it to myself :angry01:
Unless a sensible status update is known soon, my cancellation will be on it's way ...

 

[M Hsu]

remember guys erik is out of town until today with amy.

 

[Andrew M.]

Looks like Eric is on his honeymoon, so nothing is done, sorry maybe something is being done.

The only thing he can do now is to include power surge smoother, so the capacitors on the mount board do not kick in the full charge right away. This adds one or two small components to the mount.

Otherwise he has to do major modification of the Birger mount to go on top of the middle, adjustable part of RED mount, I don't expect this to happen, let's wait and see.

 

[Erik Widding]

Back from vacation. Will have more to say by Thursday. Guys fixed the electrical issue while I was gone, but I still need to validate the fix.