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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

Rami said:
For some reason Red doesn't want this Birger mount. So why?

Maybe Red is currently working on their own mount...
And maybe Erik should sell his idea to Red before it's too late!

So everybody would be happy:
Erik with some royalties (better than nothing), Red with its Red label on the mount and most important we could have our mounts and warranty!!!

I know it sounds weird but I can't figure why else Red stays still deaf to this major customers problem.
Click to expand...

don't get ahead of yourself buddy. soon ull be like the whole world is run by aliens we don't see and flipflops are an evil conspiracy.
 
it could be a battle of my dick is bigger than ures. maybe they're scared ppl are going to be sending them alotta cameras back... once u remove the entire pl mount the sensor gets very naked and exposed.. and how some screwdrivers have a magnetic tip could affect the sensor.. maybe they are worried that their sensor would be too exposed .. imagine nuts falling accidentally on the sensor.. or maybe the whole backfocus thing could get ruined and you wont be able to collimate properly anymore. the icable being pinched or smeared.. the electronics being exposed.

its like getting a ps3 or an xbox.. as soon as you open the cover... the warranty becomes void... because theyd be suspicious of someone moding their stuff...

but then again.. red claiming the camera being modular... the swapping of mounts and stuff is essential.. there are a billion different lenses and a thousand different mounts to be made inorder to be used with the red.. its unfair if the entire pl mount could not be removed to accomodate certain mounts... to me thats modular design.. whereas having the option of putting the battery on the side or on the top... thats not modular design.. what difference would it make if i put my lcd in a hole on top of the camera or on the side.. thats not the whole idea of modular design we bought from red.. thats bullshit. in that sense.. even i can modularise my canon xha-1 by having rods underneath it and running my lcd or battery anywhere i want.

as a matter of fact red wasnt designed well at all.. we have to buy mounts for everything! a mount for the battery.. a mount for the drive.. a mount for the lcd.. a mount for the handle.. a mount for the rods above.. a mount for the rods below.. and then another mount for adding a dove tail.. and then Another mount for your tripod. whereas all the video cameras out there.. you dont need any of that.... no screwing.. to tightening.. no headache.
the knobs on the sides.. we have to turn everything to bnc.. mini-xlrs for crying out loud.. they dont even work.. you hook up an hdmi cable to it and to a screen.. even there you dont get to see the proper pic.. you have to turn the hdmi to a dvi and theeeeeeen to a monitor that has a dvi input.. not a bravia.. not an hdmi capable screen.. because if you do.. you wont be able to see all of what ure shooting. oh.. and redone does not support component video.. you have to get yet another adapter that costs around 800 bucks to use ure marshall/ikan monitors with.

but anyways.. back to topic.. design dudes at red. since you fucked everything that has to do with "designing a modular camera" please find a way you could shut off the icable.. and a way you can give every tom dick and harry whos removing the entire pl mount with the collimation adjustment mount simple and nice easy steps that would safeguard them from turning their cameras into dead bricks.

thank you.
 
joelnet said:
If shorting the i/data cable really fries a RED then RED has a serious issue on their hands.

That cable has to connect to pins in lenses. Putting a lens on hastily could short them. Wouldn't a metal mount from a lens cause a short? That could happen all the time. Not to mention a defective lens could have a short in it.

To me, that's a pretty serious design flaw. Or am I wrong here and those pins are protected somehow which would make them very difficult to short?
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That is why the pins are removed for now.
I have seen a post here stating that pins will be removed because RED has some problems with leaving them active. No statement why, software or hardware problem.
Then another statement (build 14) that phantom power will be disabled because there is a problem, then cable with the resistor comes up and phantom power is enabled.

Akube, camera needs mount for this or that because is modular, don't you see it.
Other cameras do not need all these mounts because...............are not modular.
This is why all is screwed on to the camera instead of included in the camera.

Remember guys, we got i/ cable and phantom power as an extra feature, not supposed to be there.
RED probably is wishing they never introduced these, but since it is there it will be enabled and working properly one day. Mean time there are ways around the problem providing that these ways around will not end up with truckload of cameras send back for repairs.

Even fusible links are just surface mounted resistors that is pain to replace and most likely boards will have to be sent back to the factory for reflow, or one could train local technician to replace it by hand.
This or other way it is $500 job to take RED apart and go with magnifying glass and resolder surface mount component. What I see just by observing the IN and OUT from the camera, there are main protections used but no good current limiting, boards are just passing all power surges up all the way to the main power supply board, so before these 100 ohm SMD is burned the components on the boards get more than they can take from the power surge.

As to the replacing the Birger mount and PL mount every month or so, you can forget about it.
It will end up with major contamination of the CMOS sensor area sooner or later or mechanical damage.
Maybe once or twice a year may be OK, so no wonder that RED wants to discourage such practice by forcing you to send the camera somewhere.

Allowing users to change Nikon mount is risky, theoretically there is the same risk with Birger mount.
RED is thinking now, there is a risk involved and time and money in stake.
They are not sure if these 3 fried cameras is just a power surge problem only.
Maybe conditional experiment should be made, allow users to change on its own and see what will happen? Reserve the right to charge for demages?

Who should take the risk? RED or Eric? or both 50/50

I am tempted to setup the insurance fund if need be.
All you guys will pay me $200 and I will take the financial responsibility for damages and repairs.
500$ deductable from repair cost.
Mysterium demage excluded.

What do you think, good idea?
 
Yeah, I doubt there is some big conspiracy. I think more likely is that RED has its hands full working on the camera itself and communication between Birger and RED might have been a bit lacking (as it has been between Birger and ourselves). I'm sure they are listening now and are silent because they are considering the best course of action with minimal risks and hassle for all parties involved. We have voiced our concerns, which Mike has summed up well. Now let's give them a bit of time to clarify their position. Its only been a few days since the meeting between Erik and Jarred. I'm sure everyone recognizes how important this mount is to the Red One. Jim has said so publicly on another thread.

I have not touched my PL mount yet so I don't know how complicated the switching really is. I hope RED can come up with a solution where it doesn't void your entire warranty, but of course if you drop your wrench on your sensor or pinch a cable, you'll have to pay for the repairs. Maybe they are simply afraid that they will get too many cameras sent back for repairs (even if repairs paid by the user) and it will take their time away from assembling bodies for those that are still waiting.

Oh, and Erik, what is the situation with the knobs?
 
Well said Steven-Marc!
 
I shipped my camera and a box of Canon lenses to Birger for a few weeks. I hope this helps create progress. I am running out of time on the Birger-Red relationship. If it doesn't work, I have to look elsewhere for other solutions. My DP is in Botswana, Africa filming, but left Red and Birger in the states to sort out their differences. I was so looking forward to seeing the 4k Safari footage.

There are two stubbern heads involved here. They're looking for an arguement win rather than a solution. The customers are begging for a solution while two people bicker and knock heads. When two players on the same team battle, the whole team suffers. In this case all the fans in the stadium are suffering too.
 
When the birger mount ships someday, I'm going to miss all you people. Maybe we should start a support group... Birger forum addiction anonymous.
 
clarification

clarification

First, the place you go to when you remove the whole mount to put on the birger mount is the same as it was with the original mount and they did NOT change the mount because of some danger to the sensor. They did it because the front of the camera is not precision enough from camera to camera so to avoid time consuming shimming as is done with most high end film cameras they created an adjustable backfocus system. If you go to Brook Willard 's thread which has an extremely thoughtful analysis of what should be changed on EPIC, he recommends going back to a non adjustable mount - I think, because the adjustment mechanism can allow a warp or twist where your lenses aren't precisely perpendicular to the sensor. Erik's method may be better because the four screws that hold the mount lock it in place as they pull everything flat.

2nd) you can NOT drop a wrench on the sensor or cause a magnetic problem with your screwdriver.

The part you see when you remove the PL mount is NOT the sensor it is the OLPF - the optical low pass filter - which is just a piece of glass with a slight bit of diffusion to limit the amount of detail coming through. That is you want to let all of the sharpness/detail that the sensor can handle come through but even higher detail can cause artifacts so you filter those out. This should be a fairly inexpensive item both part price and replacement labor and it will be somewhat common because it is going to get scratched on occasion either during cleaning or due to sand or dust getting in during a LENS change.

DSLRs have OLPFs as well, but one of the nice things about RED is because there is no shutter mirror the OLPF can be quite a bit in front of the sensor so dust on the OLPF isn't as critical because it will be out of focus. As you can see on the Birger install photo even with ALL of the PL mount removed, there is still a quarter inch or so to the OLPF and it is inset in a metal shroud area.

It also means that the sensor can actually be completely sealed in the chamber behind the OLPF. This is also why it is completely reasonable that RED would say that regular users can't remove the HARD FRONT which is the part that seals that area and also holds the PL mount or Birger mount. AGAIN WE DON'T REMOVE THAT, WE DON'T BREAK THE SEAL, AND WE DON'T GET ANYWHERE NEAR THE SENSOR - it is another half inch or so behind the OLPF (so you magnetic screwdriver worriers can relax).

However, you have to realize that NO MATTER WHAT MOUNT YOU USE, you are going to have to get in there and touch the OLPF, it is the part that you have to clean. You will need to check it - and probably clean it - often.

quote:
"its like getting a ps3 or an xbox.. as soon as you open the cover... the warranty becomes void..."

Sorry, but it isn't anything like a ps3 or xbox - consumer devices that aren't intended to have any user serviceable parts.

Reread my post - this is a PROFESSIONAL MOTION PICTURE CAMERA and there are long standing SOPs and modes of operation/modification/repairs that are much more invasive than anything we are talking about.
 
From my Arri Manual:
"Do not use accessories or attachments not recommended by ARRI, as they may cause hazards and void the warranty"

I wonder what the Sony and Panasonic manuals say.
 
reality said:
From my Arri Manual:
"Do not use accessories or attachments not recommended by ARRI, as they may cause hazards and void the warranty"

I wonder what the Sony and Panasonic manuals say.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter: Birger was not only recommended, it was promoted as the big PR announcement by RED at NAB 2007 - and the vast majority of orders for RED cameras were made after that - a very substantial number based on that capability.

And nothing about how Birger attaches to the front of the camera (or for that matter how the RED PL attaches) has changed - its the same place with the same four screws as it was then and that holds the current RED pl mount on. (the only difference is after the first 100 cameras were shipped with many backfocus problems RED created a two piece PL with a threaded inner portion to allow easier adjustment) - the adjustable portion still mounts with the same four screws. And the i/data cable comes out with about 2 inches of cable that gets stuffed in to a channel and is also fully exposed with a dumb nikon change and of course would eventually be connected to gold pins on the very front of the mount.

And the RS-232 Lens port was the logical place to plug it in - even if somehow RED really didn't know that's where he was going with it. But since that seems to be poorly protected he's moved to drawing mount/lens power from the rear aux, which supposedly worst case just shuts down the camera even if there is a dead short.

The only thing it changes for us Birger users is IF... RED ever implements lens data (and lack of i/data pins would suggest they are concerned) we would just need a 4 pin to 10 pin RS 232 cable from the mount to the RS232 connector since Birger wouldn't use the i/data cable (and which is why most of us don't care if the i/data cable is removed completely.)
 
reality said:
From my Arri Manual:
"Do not use accessories or attachments not recommended by ARRI, as they may cause hazards and void the warranty"

I wonder what the Sony and Panasonic manuals say.
Click to expand...

Exactly, Reality. And "may" being the operative word in that Arri statement you quote. What RED is now saying is "take the PL mount off and you've voided the warranty." The grabber is that they've pitched the camera as one that can take 35mm still photography lenses all along. And these lenses don't quite install on the RED OEM PL mount. Or do they? No, they don't.

Do a search and you'll see how this whole non-OEM lens mount brouhaha has evolved. And also note that this voided warranty warning came just a few days ago, after so much had been said and done on so many fronts by so many parties.

That's why people are upset. The whole thing is pretty darn unreal.

Had I known that things would turn out to be like they are today, I would NOT have bought the RED in the first place, because I bought it to use still lenses on it, like many others here. I originally ordered the Canon FD, then switched to the Nikon after RED 86d the Canon FD, then the Nikon mount fell by the wayside with an uncertain future, so I got on the Birger wagon and last, purchased the Muse Electronics Canon FD mount as a stop-gap solution so my camera wouldn't become an expensive electronic paperweight after taking delivery of it last month (which was also somewhat coerced because of "that other sudden policy change" notice), given the prospect of continued Birger mount delays. And now, this.

So I've been graciously rolling with the punches over this matter since before NAB 2007. But this latest blow is a bit too low for me to take it with a smile.

I guess the true moral of this story is "caveat emptor."
 
Thanks for talking mike. This situation needs focus. It's easy to get off track with so many voices. What we are all asking from Red is only fairness. We trusted and bought. Many have an expensive decorative item until they are lensed. If there is a problem, let's get it fixed and not just sweep it under the rug by disuading mount changing with warranty cancelling.
 
Akube said:
aqua you talk a lot dude..
Click to expand...

Akube, I'm sure you're a gentleman despite the foul language in some of your posts, but perhaps you don't understand how Mike really feels about this situation.

Let me ask you this... was it your camera the one that was volunteered to become a part of the Birger mount development process (against all odds, like we have seen already) to help expedite its production and delivery? No, it was Mike's.

Now, then, if you're not in the front lines of this enterprise, that makes you just one of the rest of us who are benefitting from Mike's contribution to the whole Birger effort. That's a mighty comfortable position to be in, isn't it?

The fact is that Mike has taken a few bullets for all of us who ordered third party mounts for our cameras (Birger or not). And that includes you.

So, maybe a little bit of respect for the man would be on order, no?
 
Post (almost) to the other thread.

Post (almost) to the other thread.

Guys I appreciate the support. Akube, I usually appreciate your blunt take on things, so I'll take it in a positive way - I like to push as hard as I can when I think there is a solution to a situation, before it gets so set in stone that there is no turning back, but you are right - I'm spending too much time on this. See the end of this post.

I was typing a response to Jarred's post about me on the other thread, I hit submit ... and the thread was closed! So I will paste it here and PM it to Jarred.

From the RED/EOS forum

Jarred Land said:
Micheal. I am a little surprised by your response.

I am wondering if your feeling would be a little different if RED were not so kind to swallow the $3000 cost of repair to your camera when you brought your camera in with a 3rd party mount that blew up your camera, in a panic because you were going out of town in a few days. We fixed it, with a 24 hour turnaround, and got you on your way. Over something that wasn't our fault.

I am now regretting that generous decision I made.

We welcome 3rd parties to come to us with thier product, allow us to test it and approve or dissaprove and make decisons.

This is the last I am going to comment on this... I have commented, and Jim has commented, that taking apart the camera is going to void your camera warranty. End of Story.
Click to expand...

No, Jarred I was extremely appreciative of it and have said so both publicly and privately. In public I said it generically - I didn't mention the specific dollar amount or that you had comped it - because I wasn't sure if you wanted that out there.

But I also thought RED was owning up to a bit of responsibility. I was the BETA tester for a product you ostensibly want to succeed, and we were plugged into the RS232 Lens Port which SEEMINGLY should be able to handle it without causing that kind of damage. And now WE ALL know better and maybe some future problems with other devices that are supposed to plug in there can be avoided. (I seriously doubt if it was the i cable. And I think you know that because you are too overloaded or whatever, RED has not supplied very good documentation to either its customers, or its "partners" under NDA)

I wouldn't have thought it was UNFAIR of you to charge me for the repair (and I would have had to either run it through insurance or pressed RED on its contribution to the problem or just sucked it up.) However, I thought you did what I would have done with one of my customers in a similar situation - particularly one that has demonstrably created substantial orders for you - and for that I am appreciative.

As a minor side point, I did not come in a panic. I specifically told Brent that the paid portion of my shoot on Ian Bloom's movie in the Bahamas was going to be using Ian's camera, so if you couldn't get it done or needed to hang onto it for eval it was not a problem. But if it could be finished, since I was going to be there anyway and Stuart Cove is a personal friend, I would be able to jump on the shark dive for no charge to shoot with my RED just for stock and fun - and the shark dive is just a guaranteed half hour of very cool footage.

I know you may not have wanted the rest of this out there either, but I tried private communication. As I said in my post I knew it would get me in trouble but I believe there are very important near and long term issues here that need to be sorted out NOW. Not just in terms of current owners and their warranty but I think RED should consider how it is going to affect a number of res holders who will not be able to make sense out of a RED purchase in these circumstances. I know Jim's a billionaire and doesn't need any of this, but I think he wants the company to be as successful as possible.

If it is i/data cable concern and you are saying "hey the Nikon mount is a similar situation but WE sold it so we are living with it, but we want to nip it in the bud there." Then we have offered a simple solution - eliminate the i/cable because none of these users care about it anyway, it is just in the way.

If it was an issue of overdrawing the Lens port, that issue has been covered. I'm told by fairly competent people that coming out of the aux 12V should eliminate problems even if Erik hadn't changed the mount recently to limit its power draw, but if it is still an issue or you simply don't want people plugging it in there, well - aggravating as it might be for your customers - an extra little NiMH battery to drive the mount so there is no electrical contact whatsoever all day would be an easy fix and probably cheaper for Erik - one less LEMO.

If I thought this was some insurmountable technical problem I would just STFU and go away. The problem I am having with your responses right now is on the one hand you say taking apart your camera voids the warranty, but on the other hand taking apart the camera for the nikon mount doesn't void the warranty. And Birger mounting isn't substantially different.

Jarred: You're a good guy, I'm a good guy, Jim's a good guy, and Erik's a good guy. You work for the company, and have to protect their interests diligently ... and I'm a customer and I have customers that I have evangelized to go RED/Birger/AquaVideo rather than EX1 or HVX/AquaVideo - sometimes to my detriment because they would have been bought and paid for a long time ago... I respected what you were doing even before RED, so I hope this doesn't permanently chill our relationship. But I hope you will consider my and your (RED's) customers needs and that you and Jim will not dig your heels in where something could be fairly easily worked out.

If there was a personal issue between RED and Erik at some point that caused a breakdown in effective communication and engineering... well my and your (RED's) customers don't want it to affect our ability to use this wonderful camera.

As Akube said on the other thread "aqua you talk a lot..." He's right - I did 9 hours in the water one day, and 2 hours the next day banging around with the sharks and I'm too out of shape for that sh.. anymore, so I've been laying back and reading REDUSER and typing. So now I will take my cue and STFU.
 
Jarred Land said:
We welcome 3rd parties to come to us with thier product, allow us to test it and approve or dissaprove and make decisons.

This is the last I am going to comment on this... I have commented, and Jim has commented, that taking apart the camera is going to void your camera warranty. End of Story.
Click to expand...

I have a feeling that BIRGER EF mount for RED is now officially and definitely out of RED mount options.

Of course you can do it yourself or even BIRGER can do installation of the mount for you BUT THAT VOID THE RED WARRANTY!!!

GAME OVER!!!

That is a clear by now.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!!!
 
to sum up the current situation:

From Jarred:
"This is the last I am going to comment on this... I have commented, and Jim has commented, that taking apart the camera is going to void your camera warranty. End of Story." (this is a very unusual comment from Jarred, he rarely gets frustrated)

So we're going to assume this is the official RED position; remove the entire mount assembly and you will void your warranty. (as has been pointed out, removing the front half that contains the PL mount collar is ok for Nikon mounts, sorry for the confusion) This takes out the IMS mount, the FD muse mount and the Birger as user installable options.

If your camera does break because of the birger, the reported cost to get it fixed by RED is $3000

There has been substantial disagreement between Erik and RED about what caused the short:

"The mounts that damaged the cameras drew more power than the camera was speced to provide for less than 1/100,000 of a second, once per power up, and once per lens replacement. The protection device in the camera did not stop this from happening." - Erik

Erik maintains it was a design error that can be fixed in the birger mount redesign, not an operator error during the install as RED says:

"The official diagnosis that I and the two others were given by RED is that the I-Cable was pinched, causing a short."

It seems that now, the burden of proof has come to rest on Erik as Jarred has been very clear about this being the last he has to say on the matter.

Erik has also stated that he cannot make a canon dumb mount for this reason:
"I am all for other solutions. But I should point out to people that this is physically impossible, without removing the collimation assembly." - Erik

It looks like the options then are:
1. Ship Erik your camera and get in line for him to install the mount and send it back to you. This is difficult if anyone wants to switch back and forth between Canon and PL or lives out of the U.S. Also we know how busy Erik is. UPDATE: Jarred says this:
"just to be clear.. there is no official agreement with Birger yet. The deal is not worked out, so if you are hearing other words, you have bad information. As of right now, the Birger mount still voids the warranty."

2. See how the dumb Canon mount from alesniak works out. (if this does work out, then it's possible the birger could be redesigned so the electronics were housed in a box to the side of the lens mount)

3. Nikon dumb mount or upcoming G mount from Doug. (it's not that bad, we just have to sell all the canon glass and replace with nikon glass. And i have probably $8,000 worth of canon glass and a 5D so I'm not saying that lightly)

UPDATE: option 4: Jarred says this in a later post:
If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this

I would also echo Chris in saying the important thing is to be shooting rather than waiting for a perfect solution.
 
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