Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[David Wilson]

I've been led to understand that there are multiple forms of image stabilization - one just as you described. Another, however, seems magically to be accomplished by some form of floating lens element and electromagnets compensating (real time) for shake. It's all an engineering mystery and miracle to me.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Basically the lens is measuring the movement ("shake") and compensates for that in realtime either by tiny mirrors or slight misplacing of some lens elements.

It is indeed a mixture of engineering, electronics and magic

 

[Martin Weiss]

At what point is a tangential discussion within a 158-page thread considered "getting off topic"?

I changed my settings to show 20 posts per page - thus halving the size of the Birger Thread (or should it be spelled Threat?)

Closer and closer to the end of the month. Any positive progress at Birger? Anything to get excited about?

Well, Build 16 is out and gets some good feed-back. Mess in Zimbabwe. Midsummernight today. Oh, and the Birger starts shipping next week.

Well, pick 3 out of 4....

 

[M Hsu]

Closer and closer to the end of the month. Any positive progress at Birger? Anything to get excited about?

I believe Erik has been in Maryland with Amy planning their wedding since thursday. As I understand it, he will get started again tomorrow hopefully.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I thought image stabilization was a software thing that an overscanning sensor could track the image when it shook, and remove the shake. It would have a window inside of the entire sensor area to work, and gauge from frame to frame how much shift to apply up, down, left right.

How the hell does a lens do this?

That is the crappy EIS ElectronicIS style IS.

Good IS - called supersteadyshot by Sony, was developed in the 90s between sony and canon (with canon presumably the lead) it uses piezoelectronics to sense and then adjust. Piezo elements are ceramics that generate electricity when pressure or flex is applied (used in guitar pickups since the seventies and microphone elements as well) or flexes (on a very minute scale) when electricity is applied. When motion is sensed it sends electricity to the piezo element which in turn adjusts or flexes internal lens elements - thus it is an optical thing. If you have shot with a prosumer Sony camera (or Canon) with supersteadyshot you know that it works very well and is something not readily available in broadcast lenses.

I can confirm that it does work with the Birger mount as I did some tests with my 17-55 f2.8 IS EF-S and 70-200 2.8L IS last thursday. It is a little awkward getting it started up and keeping it going and that is something erik is working on in software - you have to fool the lens into thinking that you are always doing that partial press of the shutter button on the SLR that activates IS and AF.

 

[Michael Hastings]

It's still just hard to believe that the same market that makes my $800 Angeniuex 25-250mm f3.9 overnight worth $1500 is going to chop the price of a nearly new RED 18-50mm f2.9 in half.

But there may be market inefficiencies that I'm not understanding. The Birger may dislocate demand for the 18-50mm more than I realize. Time will tell, everything else is just speculation.

Here's my take: suppose RED continues to put out 400 cameras a month - even if two thirds of those go birger or nikon that is still 130 new pl cameras per month - exceeding the normal capacity of zeiss and cooke and further pressuring the used market for PL lenses - so overall the pressure is still there - and that will keep the value of the red 18-50 up even in spite of my point following your next quote. But at some point the limit of cine style DPs (for example the ASC only has 340 members, BSC a little less) and shoots will be reached and the vast majority of new sales will be predicated on low cost SLR lenses via birger or some other solution. I.E. if RED wants to sell another 4000 REDONES it will be necessary to have a viable birger-type setup.

I actually think the macro function on the 18-50mm is quite good,-- one of the under-rated qualities of this lens. Very sharp and pretty, smooth bokeh. People who slag this lens should try shooting more anthills and butterflies before dismissing it.

The 18-50 is excellent, as expressed by the ARRI technicians here in ft. lauderdale when they put it on their projector back in November. (and the $6500 price is excellent given what century or anyone else gets for a similar lens) However, the same macro capability, sharpness and bokeh are available with the Sigma 18-50 for about $449 at B&H if you can use it on birger and don't need the mechanical capabilities of a cine style lens.

I think that people need to see birger not as a challenge to PL - as I said the number of PLs needed is still going to go up rapidly and constantly for quite a while - they need to see birger as making the RED viable for all those people whose finances normally would put them in the HVX200, EX1, XH-A1 market and that's where the vast majority of sales are possible.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

But at some point the limit of cine style DPs (for example the ASC only has 340 members, BSC a little less) and shoots will be reached and the vast majority of new sales will be predicated on low cost SLR lenses via birger or some other solution. I.E. if RED wants to sell another 4000 REDONES it will be necessary to have a viable birger-type setup.

An interesting point, and I agree, although I do think that RED is also in the process of expanding the user base for PL lenses, so this contraction of demand for PL mount lenses may take awhile.

I agree that RED would do well to support all possible lens options, on one hand, but how do they do that without simultaneously cutting into their PL sales -- I'm sure they have target numbers that they need to hit to make revolutionary pricing on PL lenses possible. A bit of a conundrum for RED, I would think...sell lots of cameras by supporting all lens options fully (that'd be swell...) or leave the development of optional lens mounts to the 3rd parties primarily so that they can focus their efforts on PL lens development and sales, which has been the trajectory so far.

But the DSLR base has the true potential for massive consumer sales, and over the long haul, and if RED shows a will to converge still and video technologies in a way that is user-friendly to people who already own a rack of great DSLR lenses, they could really clean up. I've been shouting that from the treetops all along. SCARLET has been their strategy for entering the large consumer market, but really, the serious hobbyist/smaller pro base for video is so much smaller than the same base for photography. If they simply converged the technologies in a way that allowed all of those photographers to shoot both great video and great stills using the identical gear and lenses that they already own, they would make a killing.

However, the same macro capability, sharpness and bokeh are available with the Sigma 18-50 for about $449 at B&H if you can use it on birger and don't need the mechanical capabilities of a cine style lens.

Agree -- and I have a Canon 100mm which I love and am very interested in seeing how the RED macro and the 100mm macro stack up against each other.

But it's all moot until this mount ships and is thoroughly field-tested and trustworthy enough to be a primary mount.

The best lens is still the one that works on the end of your camera....and my Canon macro isn't there yet!

 

[Thor Wixom]

Someone who needs to keep their camera PL-mount because it sometimes needs to be used with other PL-mount lenses (on rentals, etc.), but who can't afford to own higher-end PL-mount lenses. We're picking up a Red 18-50mm. We were pretty excited about the Birger mount, and were holding out for it, but the latest round of delays (and uncertainty about when the whole system -- focus knob, etc. -- will really be complete) has caused us to reevaluate our needs, and we've realized it would be somewhat detrimental to some of what we're trying to do if we converted the camera to something other than PL mount. (It has become increasingly clear over the months that mount swapping isn't really something you can do regularly.)

As for the Red 18-85 significantly reducing the value of the 18-50mm... A 35mm-format zoom with that focal length range is going to be big. Probably around 20 pounds, vs. 3 pounds for the 18-50mm. Definitely not something you'd want to have on your camera in every situation.

Chris,

I'd be happy to save you $1500 off the price of an 18-50. :greedy:

PM me if you're interested.

-Thor

EDIT: This offer applies to any one that is interested.

 

[Erik Widding]

Got a couple of packages this morning from LEMO and the machine shop. Spoke to RED yesterday, and my camera was already repaired and scheduled for shipment last night. Do not have the tracking number from RED for the camera yet.

 

[Joe Vinson]

Got a couple of packages this morning from LEMO and the machine shop. Spoke to RED yesterday, and my camera was already repaired and scheduled for shipment last night. Do not have the tracking number from RED for the camera yet.

Thanks Erik. Keep us posted.

I notice the mounts are engraved with "©2008." Tick-tock, dude! :watsup:

 

[lonny dill]

4K Camera with IS and AF!!!!!

4K Camera with IS and AF!!!!!

We have a dream of a Cine 4k camera with image stabilization and auto focus. Attached is a pic of our Red camera, Birger mount the Canon EF 600mm Lens and the Canon 2X extender(1200mm). We all know Red has most of the electronics necessary to assist with the software to make auto-focus a reality. All I can say is: "Imagine how large that customer base would be."
Birger and Red are on the edge of something huge that has never been done before. Hopefully in the making.

 

[Thor Wixom]

Alright, no more digression.

Go Erik!

Amazing things are about to happen!

-Thor

 

[Thor Wixom]

We have a dream of a Cine 4k camera with image stabilization and auto focus. Attached is a pic of our Red camera, Birger mount the Canon EF 600mm Lens and the Canon 2X extender(1200mm). We all know Red has most of the electronics necessary to assist with the software to make auto-focus a reality. All I can say is: "Imagine how large that customer base would be."
Birger and Red are on the edge of something huge that has never been done before. Hopefully in the making.

Idill,

Please let us know how the IS works! I'm shooting regularly out of moving vehicles and I don't have the budget (neither does my client) for an external stabilizer.

For me IS IS the solution! (Pun intended!)

-Thor

 

[Thor Wixom]

We have a dream of a Cine 4k camera with image stabilization and auto focus. Attached is a pic of our Red camera, Birger mount the Canon EF 600mm Lens and the Canon 2X extender(1200mm). We all know Red has most of the electronics necessary to assist with the software to make auto-focus a reality. All I can say is: "Imagine how large that customer base would be."
Birger and Red are on the edge of something huge that has never been done before. Hopefully in the making.

SNAP!

I'm DROOLING! SERIOUSLY!!!

Get me on the race track with that setup, plus autofocus!

-Thor

 

[Joe Vinson]

By the way, how is it we still haven't seen any footage taken with the Birger mount? Erik, Aqua, Idill... come on, guys!

 

[M Hsu]

now do you really want erik to work on footage instead of mounts?

 

[Michael Hastings]

By the way, how is it we still haven't seen any footage taken with the Birger mount? Erik, Aqua, Idill... come on, guys!

I shot some crappy footage in my house on thursday before shipping it out to my nephew for a short movie shoot, but it did show that IS works. I will try to get some time to post some footage but I am scrambling to get housings done.

 

[Thor Wixom]

I shot some crappy footage in my house on thursday before shipping it out to my nephew for a short movie shoot, but it did show that IS works. I will try to get some time to post some footage but I am scrambling to get housings done.

Thanks, Aqua. You are the oil to the Birger thread motor.

-Thor

 

[Joe Vinson]

Thanks Aqua. Can you give us any other details or initial impressions? I hope not all your footage has been "crappy." How do the Canon lenses compare to others in your arsenal? What was the collimation process like? Do you like the mount's operation so far?

 

[Chris Kenny]

Chris,

I'd be happy to save you $1500 off the price of an 18-50. :greedy:

Ours has already shipped from Red. Ah, well.