Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Martin Weiss]

If this is new from Birger mount, why not open a new thread outside?

I guess right now that is because the Birger is so new, everybody wants to see real-world examples of the Birger in use.

Once we are over that phase, then it should indeed be under new lens test threads.

 

[N_Villers]

office visit

office visit

Hi everyone,

first post on the birger thread but long time follower (cringing and all). Visiting family in Boston and dropped by the Birger office here today. Was able to get a brief demo and was very impressed as those that were able to be at NAB I am sure can attest to. Eric is hard at work and there were plenty of mounts around getting ready for shipment. Was not able to see any knobs or remote but based on our conversation they are I am sure going to be top notch. Got to see a nifty extremely high speed tracking device/software project they are working on and while not my field was impressive nonetheless. On a last note Eric was gracious enough to spend the time to show me the mount and talk about future potential but indicated that he highly discourages such impromptu visits. So don't do as I did and take his time by calling or visiting. :matrix:

 

[Jim Hoffman]

Thanks for the pictures Mike. You work always looks cool.

Jim

 

[Mark B.]

Hi everyone,

first post on the birger thread but long time follower (cringing and all). Visiting family in Boston and dropped by the Birger office here today. Was able to get a brief demo and was very impressed as those that were able to be at NAB I am sure can attest to. Eric is hard at work and there were plenty of mounts around getting ready for shipment. Was not able to see any knobs or remote but based on our conversation they are I am sure going to be top notch. Got to see a nifty extremely high speed tracking device/software project they are working on and while not my field was impressive nonetheless. On a last note Eric was gracious enough to spend the time to show me the mount and talk about future potential but indicated that he highly discourages such impromptu visits. So don't do as I did and take his time by calling or visiting. :matrix:

Get any pictures of the place? Is it clean and organized, or messy like a programmer's computer room?

 

[Erik Widding]

On a last note Erik was gracious enough to spend the time to show me the mount and talk about future potential but indicated that he highly discourages such impromptu visits.

As he departed now a customer, I am able to forgive the visit... but... it is really safe to assume, I won't be so nice to the next person that shows up unannounced.

 

[Mark B.]

As he departed now a customer, I am able to forgive the visit... but... it is really safe to assume, I won't be so nice to the next person that shows up unannounced.

What if the next visitor puts in a couple hours work?

 

[Emanuel A.]

As he departed now a customer, I am able to forgive the visit... but... it is really safe to assume, I won't be so nice to the next person that shows up unannounced.

Glad to know you're shipping. Now I hope you can take care of all. And have more time for filling up the full list.

With both reservations -- Canon and also Nikon, any estimation for the Nikon mount?

Your loyal believer -- as already said from day one,

E.

 

[N_Villers]

Get any pictures of the place? Is it clean and organized, or messy like a programmer's computer room?

No pictures - how would it sound to you "Umm, Hi Eric, you don't know me but can I just jump in to your office and take a few pictures. I'll just post them on the internet - no worries." Not very messy just looked like it was deep in production. Nice airy office in downtown Boston commercial district (a few blocks from where my mother worked for 15 years). Things looked organized but in use. He demonstrated a unit by attaching it to a RED with a large monitor through hdmi. Setup was quick and painless. The collimation mechanism seemed particularly clever. There was a large golfing net set up and I asked if this was how he gets out his aggression from all the kindergarten (my words) behavior on this thread but it was for the high speed tracking system. He whacked a ball at a good 200mph which the software was able to track and analyze. Very happy to be a future customer. FYI new orders placed now should get mounts at the end of October. Also hope its ok to disclose but from everything I could gather Kurt's impero wireless remote should work very well with the birger. Eric's cellphone was even able to detect the signal from the mount!! Iphone needs to open stacking?? on its bluetooth for it to communicate.

 

[Karl H]

first impressions...

first impressions...

Got my mount and it's a very well made piece of kit. Packed with the care and attention you'd expect form Erik.

Thankyou very much Erik, I think this device has huge potential. I'm hit with excitement now, it's just amazing to see my camera finally working.

Couple of questions :

Collimating the mount seems (to my thick brain) a very hit and miss process. You have to take the lens off, and the mount itself (you might get away with loosening the four outer screws) to re-collimate, this can take a lot of time. However our biggest problem was that we're still a bit out on collimation but we cannot turn the inner ring any more in the direction we need (anti-clockwise). It's currently on 5, and we need to get it lower, but it wont budge. It turns clockwise but this just takes it more out of allignment. I think we have hit the end of the screw thread and it just wont turn anymore in the direction we need. I took the whole mount off again to confirm it wasnt just sticking, but it really has come to the end of the thread. However, this isnt a big deal as I only have 1 zoom lens, the rest are primes. So for the moment it isnt an issue and I'm not one to use zooms anyway... Perhaps I am doing something insanely wrong! ?

I was a bit concerned that the top and bottom buttons were not controlling the iris on all my lenses, but what you have to do is press both of them together first to get the lens to go wide open. Only after that do the open and close buttons work.

Apart from those minor things, I'm very pleased. Hard to say too much right now because not until we get knobs or bluetooth will the power of the mount become apparant.

I may post some pics tomorrow, it's too late now.

Thanks again Erik, I know you've worked hard on this, and I'm really happy to have it finally in my hands.

 

[Erik Widding]

Collimating the mount seems (to my thick brain) a very hit and miss process. You have to take the lens off, and the mount itself (you might get away with loosening the four outer screws) to re-collimate, this can take a lot of time.

The software for doing the collimation is just not ready to be released yet, as we have to run some more data to make the statistical models more accurate.

There is a pen and paper way to get an acurate collimation. The process: Get best focus with the lens zoomed out, zoom in, and then take a measurement (i.e. use a flexible ruler, and measure rotation in mm) of how much you turn the focus and in what direction (i.e. assign positive number for clockwise, and negative for counterclockwise). Do this with your collimation adapter at 2 or 3 points to start, for example 5, 6, 7 on your adapter. Graph the resulting numbers, signed rotation on the x-axis, and collimation number (x10, so it is in 1/100 mm, and corresponds to the finer scale) on the y-axis. Then use your ruler to draw a best fit line. The intersecton on the Y-axis is your collimation number.

If you use more points, you might then use excel, and a higher order (i.e. non-linear) function to get the Y-intercept.

The statistical models simply know the shape of this curve for a given lens, and use the a second set of data points (from a closeup lens) to correct some of the error. This allows for successive approximation of a collimation number. We should probably put the pencil and paper method into the software application (which I saw running on a mac for the first time a few days ago) so people can use lenses that we haven't yet built models for.

Also, you should note some lenses (i.e. 10-22, 17-85) do not hold zoom very well in the macro end of the range. Do the collimation at 2 or 3 meters and verify it at infinity. Something like the 16-35 seems to hold through the entire range. Wider is better for the lens. What lens did you use?

However our biggest problem was that we're still a bit out on collimation but we cannot turn the inner ring any more in the direction we need (anti-clockwise). It's currently on 5, and we need to get it lower, but it wont budge. It turns clockwise but this just takes it more out of allignment. I think we have hit the end of the screw thread and it just wont turn anymore in the direction we need.

If the collimation ring is flush with the back of the mount then it is all the way in. Email me directly (info at birger dot com), and we'll get this worked out. Send me a digital pictre of the rear of the collimation adapter screwed all the way in, and the front of your camera with no mount attached, at an oblique angle.

I was a bit concerned that the top and bottom buttons were not controlling the iris on all my lenses, but what you have to do is press both of them together first to get the lens to go wide open. Only after that do the open and close buttons work.

That is the intended behavior. The mechanism needs to be homed after power up before we know where it is. We have this as a manual operation, as you might not want the iris to home immediately after swapping a battery, or if there were some power/cable glitch during a shoot.

 

[Schuster]

My apologies if this is an uneducated question, but will the mount have to be collimated each time you put a different lens on? And if so, how will this software help that?

Got the "almost ready to ship" email from RED today but this mount is a big yes or no on taking delivery.

Thanks

Stephen

 

[N_Villers]

From my conversation at Birger today the mount does not need to be collimated with each lens change. As SLR lenses are mass produced there can be (although with L series lens much less so) variances in each lenses' individual collimation. It seems wise to check each lens professionally and shim them if necessary. A "matched set" would then not require the mount to be recollimated unless it was removed for a PL mount etc.

 

[N_Villers]

One last note from my observations today that I think is important. The individual 1/4 stop iris changes are quite apparent in a stepped progression. This means that (unless disguised somehow in the shot) ramp progressions will be very noticeable and not give you a fluid change from stop to stop. This is not true of the focus control which is very smooth. This is, according to Eric, based on the lenses' own internal limitation. On some lenses 1/8 stop progressions might be possible at a later date but this will still be quite apparent imo. For our own purposes we will most likely still use PL lenses for most of our work but for a fast cut handheld Bourne Identity type feel it will be ideal. Who knows, maybe once everything is all together, mount, software, knobs/remote, cheap Canon lenses will give the big boys a run for their money. Either way, as one more option to get a certain look, or fit a certain circumstance, or as some are clearly expecting replace cine lenses all together, I believe after seeing the mount today that it is an extremely good value and will lead to a lot of new creative cinema.

Just as an aside I'll relate a conversation I had with an eminent teacher from the Hungarian Film Academy about not only this mount in particular but increasing encroachment of still lenses into filmaking with 35mm adaptors on video cameras or the IMS for the RED. While appreciating their advantages (mostly cost) he somewhat felt that it was not the best development as this will discourage new advances in traditional cine lens design. That if they make too much of an inroads the market will not be enough for such expensive and specialized products. Anyhow, food for thought.

 

[Dominique Grenier]

While appreciating their advantages (mostly cost) he somewhat felt that it was not the best development as this will discourage new advances in traditional cine lens design. That if they make too much of an inroads the market will not be enough for such expensive and specialized products. Anyhow, food for thought.

Sure, but for most people, including me, who buy such systems and lenses it is either that or... nothing!

 

[Joel Kaye]

While appreciating their advantages (mostly cost) he somewhat felt that it was not the best development as this will discourage new advances in traditional cine lens design.

So? What he probably will see is advancement in SLR lenses used for moving pictures because Canon and Nikon both have now begun capturing moving images and they need an excuse to upgrade their lenses to get a whole new buying cycle going.

Back on topic... anyone get tracking numbers?

 

[N_Villers]

On topic?? In this forum?? LOL :bleh:

 

[Bob Gruen]

Just as an aside I'll relate a conversation I had with an eminent teacher from the Hungarian Film Academy about not only this mount in particular but increasing encroachment of still lenses into filmaking with 35mm adaptors on video cameras or the IMS for the RED. While appreciating their advantages (mostly cost) he somewhat felt that it was not the best development as this will discourage new advances in traditional cine lens design. That if they make too much of an inroads the market will not be enough for such expensive and specialized products. Anyhow, food for thought.

Or the proliferation of affordable video / digital cinematography equipment will demonstrate to still lens manufacturers that there is an emerging middle market that they could easily slide into by leveraging their economies of scale. To be worried that Canon or Nikkor might put Cooke out of business seems a bit short sighted in my opinion. How hard would it be for Canon to remount all of their L-Series glass in cinema-type mechanical housings and sell matched sets for $10K. Or Nikkor to add a few features to their still assemblies to make them a little more appropriate for dynamic movement, again selling prime sets at the $10K~12K price point. Would that eat in to Cooke's market?

The thing to keep in mind about economics is that the person/company who builds the better mousetrap will succeed, especially in a niche market where the consumer is informed. I'd estimate the explosive demand in this area will cause someone to see the gap and fill it, especially if Canon or Panasonic take a cue from Red and develop a full frame HD sensor-ed camera that uses still (or the aforementioned cine) lenses.

Bob

 

[Bob Gruen]

As he departed now a customer, I am able to forgive the visit... but... it is really safe to assume, I won't be so nice to the next person that shows up unannounced.

Ouch. Good thing I'm not near Boston, I might be tempted to buy Erik lunch or something...

 

[N_Villers]

The thing to keep in mind about economics is that the person/company who builds the better mousetrap will succeed, especially in a niche market where the consumer is informed.

Bob

Point well taken. This is similar to the argument I made at the time.

 

[Shawn R]

I think the L series lenses are well made but from reviewing there performance online they are not so hot. The old FD lenses in the primes are very comparable for the price.