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paul engstrom
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Go Richard, Go.
p
p
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Pawel Achtel
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Hey Richard, Can you provide the following information for daylight balanced panel?
- Luminous output at full power
- Power consumption
- Beam angle
Thanks.
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
I started a FAQ based on user questions so far. Perhaps specific questions will be answered here, otherwise I can add your question later. Here goes:
1) What is the quality and output of the LED lights? Is it as good as or better than the Lowel gear I currently use?
Photometrics to be posted soon. As for questions about comparisons to specific lighting gear I don’t have enough data to be able to tell at this time. In general I would compare it to a 600w Fresnel somewhere in between narrow and wide beam but probably closer to the wide beam setting. When we get the photometric data, that will confirm it.
2) For interviews and small location use, would I be better off with fluorescent lights? Or are your new LEDs capable of excelling in that context? (I'm a bit reluctant to go with fluorescents because of bulb fragility).
LEDs and fluorescents both have their place for sure. Some think that LEDs will replace fluorescent, HMI and tungsten but in my opinion that is a long ways off—if for no other reason than from a cost standpoint.
I view LEDs as usable in specific instances where light can be well controlled and also where power availability is at a premium. For instance, such a panel would be great for filming subjects in a car at night. Or how about a walking interview down a busy sidewalk at night. Other uses would be the person taking video in a cave or out in the wilds of Africa at night filming animals. Notice I said “night” in all those instances. Such a light would be quickly overpowered by real daylight and even fluorescent softlights with their inherent falloff have difficulties. We have people tell us all the time they are able to use fluorescents such as a 4x55w or a 6x55w in a room where daylight is streaming in but I also know there are such situations where it doesn’t work too—particularly if you were actually outside during the day on all but the most overcast of days. That’s what the CDM 150 and all such fixtures in HMI class are for—competing with daylight with their superior throw and projection ability. Every tool has its place in the kit and the proper place to use it. None of them are good everywhere.
3) How many hours are your LEDs rated?
The rating is 50,000 hours. The warranty period is 1 year.
4) Do your LED lights suffer from a green tint like the Flolight LEDs? If so, what workarounds do you suggest?
No, they were chosen based on their CRI which is in the 80 to 85 range. Anytime you see a green bias like that its simply a CRI issue. Daylight white LEDs are some of the hardest to get in a good CRI. Go to 8000K or 3200K and it’s less trouble to get a superior CRI. Daylight 5600K 5mm LEDs though, because of the way “white” is implemented with 5mm LEDs are particularly tough to get right without going to a super expensive solution or a 1W to 5W type LED configuration. We do have planned a multi-1W LED panel solution and I think that will have its own uses and market as well.
5). What is the beam angle of the LEDs?
45 degrees. We experimented with the 15 to 30 degree range but found the CRI to be terrible for real daylight LEDs so we dropped back to the first suitable range where CRI came back to being usable. A 15 to 30 degree 5mm LED would be great for a small on camera light but you’d need to go to 8000K to get a really good CRI. What you get in return is about the best lumen output you can get from 5mm LEDs and great throw but a relatively small beam. Otherwise, the 45 to 50 degree 5mm LEDs are about where I consider them to become useful. That is, until someone makes a better quality 5mm narrow beam angle LED in a price range that’s makes them useful.
6) Will your LED lights mix well with daylight and other light sources? For example, if I gel my Lowel lights to daylight? Or if I use LED lights from other companies, such as an on-camera light for an eye-light or front fill?
So far in my tests, I think these LEDs do mix well with daylight or some other fluorescents or HMI we have tried. I don’t have the facility to test against other products like the Lowels. As I said earlier though, I think these things excel in use by themselves in particular instances where nothing else would work. I think flos are particularly still a great choice for mixing with tungsten or HMI when you’re doing work in normal settings.
7) Will you be including gels for 3200K, color wash FX, and diffusion?
Not at this time. Otherwise it's best to just get the tungsten version if thats what you need. The reason being you'll lose less light than with gelling. I think the best accessory in that area would be a full CTO filter plastic panel that can slide into the accessory frame. Someone also mentioned that the plastic “fresnel” type panels used on overhead projectors work very well for focusing the beam of an LED type fixture and are available in wide and narrow so a couple of those panels would make a great future accessory as we can find them and make them available.
8) How do gels attach?
Gels could attach to the barndoors with clips as many do today. No gel frame at this time. We do have an accessory slide in where the barndoors go. This is just a channel with adequate room for various kinds of modifier panels can go if you take out the barndoors.
9) What does "slideout barn door" mean? How does that work?
As mentioned in the previous example, the barndoors simply slide into the accessory channel and lock into place with a spring loaded lock similar to the way barndoors lock into a Fresnel accessory holder. Having something else in there at the same time is not possible though and you would need to slide the barndoors out to be able to use some kind of light diffusion or modification panel or filter.
10) Will you include reflective attachments for the barn doors similar to Flolight's LED fixtures?
Yes, we’ll use reflective intensifiers attached with Velcro.
11) What batteries will work with the lights? Voltage range? What do you recommend?
I recommend something in the 150WH range in AB or V mount types which are normally around 14V to 15V or so. I haven’t done the tests yet with various kinds but will be by end of October.
12) Can I hook up batteries or battery belts without requiring the optional adapter plates?
Yes, the power input on the back of the unit from our enclosed power supply is a 4 pin XLR male. Thus, if you have a power accessory with a 4 pin XLR female on a cable, you could attach to that power connector and replace the power supply with whatever it is you have. I recommend using only voltages in the range of 12v to 15V DC though.
13). What is the power consumption?
About 50 watts at 12VDC.
14) Do you sell stands for them? What do you recommend and how much do they cost?
Yes we have stands on the site—5 different models from small to heavy duty C-Stand. Something like our CL-LS3 stand is very small and lightweight and a good pairing with this fixture.
15) Will you offer cases for a kit of two, three or four?
The only case we offer at this time is the free one for just one unit. I have other cases, but they are very large and not meant specifically for this fixture. We’ll see what demand there is for multi-cases and make one available as that becomes more clear.
16) Will you offer an extra discount when purchasing multiple lights?
No other discounts at this time. We are already a manufacturer direct pricing model and heavily discounted.
17) Will the lights actually ship in December, or not until next year?
Hopefully by December if no unforeseen delays come into play.
18) Will there be any way to use remote dimming control or DMX control with these lights?
No DMX capability at this time.
1) What is the quality and output of the LED lights? Is it as good as or better than the Lowel gear I currently use?
Photometrics to be posted soon. As for questions about comparisons to specific lighting gear I don’t have enough data to be able to tell at this time. In general I would compare it to a 600w Fresnel somewhere in between narrow and wide beam but probably closer to the wide beam setting. When we get the photometric data, that will confirm it.
2) For interviews and small location use, would I be better off with fluorescent lights? Or are your new LEDs capable of excelling in that context? (I'm a bit reluctant to go with fluorescents because of bulb fragility).
LEDs and fluorescents both have their place for sure. Some think that LEDs will replace fluorescent, HMI and tungsten but in my opinion that is a long ways off—if for no other reason than from a cost standpoint.
I view LEDs as usable in specific instances where light can be well controlled and also where power availability is at a premium. For instance, such a panel would be great for filming subjects in a car at night. Or how about a walking interview down a busy sidewalk at night. Other uses would be the person taking video in a cave or out in the wilds of Africa at night filming animals. Notice I said “night” in all those instances. Such a light would be quickly overpowered by real daylight and even fluorescent softlights with their inherent falloff have difficulties. We have people tell us all the time they are able to use fluorescents such as a 4x55w or a 6x55w in a room where daylight is streaming in but I also know there are such situations where it doesn’t work too—particularly if you were actually outside during the day on all but the most overcast of days. That’s what the CDM 150 and all such fixtures in HMI class are for—competing with daylight with their superior throw and projection ability. Every tool has its place in the kit and the proper place to use it. None of them are good everywhere.
3) How many hours are your LEDs rated?
The rating is 50,000 hours. The warranty period is 1 year.
4) Do your LED lights suffer from a green tint like the Flolight LEDs? If so, what workarounds do you suggest?
No, they were chosen based on their CRI which is in the 80 to 85 range. Anytime you see a green bias like that its simply a CRI issue. Daylight white LEDs are some of the hardest to get in a good CRI. Go to 8000K or 3200K and it’s less trouble to get a superior CRI. Daylight 5600K 5mm LEDs though, because of the way “white” is implemented with 5mm LEDs are particularly tough to get right without going to a super expensive solution or a 1W to 5W type LED configuration. We do have planned a multi-1W LED panel solution and I think that will have its own uses and market as well.
5). What is the beam angle of the LEDs?
45 degrees. We experimented with the 15 to 30 degree range but found the CRI to be terrible for real daylight LEDs so we dropped back to the first suitable range where CRI came back to being usable. A 15 to 30 degree 5mm LED would be great for a small on camera light but you’d need to go to 8000K to get a really good CRI. What you get in return is about the best lumen output you can get from 5mm LEDs and great throw but a relatively small beam. Otherwise, the 45 to 50 degree 5mm LEDs are about where I consider them to become useful. That is, until someone makes a better quality 5mm narrow beam angle LED in a price range that’s makes them useful.
6) Will your LED lights mix well with daylight and other light sources? For example, if I gel my Lowel lights to daylight? Or if I use LED lights from other companies, such as an on-camera light for an eye-light or front fill?
So far in my tests, I think these LEDs do mix well with daylight or some other fluorescents or HMI we have tried. I don’t have the facility to test against other products like the Lowels. As I said earlier though, I think these things excel in use by themselves in particular instances where nothing else would work. I think flos are particularly still a great choice for mixing with tungsten or HMI when you’re doing work in normal settings.
7) Will you be including gels for 3200K, color wash FX, and diffusion?
Not at this time. Otherwise it's best to just get the tungsten version if thats what you need. The reason being you'll lose less light than with gelling. I think the best accessory in that area would be a full CTO filter plastic panel that can slide into the accessory frame. Someone also mentioned that the plastic “fresnel” type panels used on overhead projectors work very well for focusing the beam of an LED type fixture and are available in wide and narrow so a couple of those panels would make a great future accessory as we can find them and make them available.
8) How do gels attach?
Gels could attach to the barndoors with clips as many do today. No gel frame at this time. We do have an accessory slide in where the barndoors go. This is just a channel with adequate room for various kinds of modifier panels can go if you take out the barndoors.
9) What does "slideout barn door" mean? How does that work?
As mentioned in the previous example, the barndoors simply slide into the accessory channel and lock into place with a spring loaded lock similar to the way barndoors lock into a Fresnel accessory holder. Having something else in there at the same time is not possible though and you would need to slide the barndoors out to be able to use some kind of light diffusion or modification panel or filter.
10) Will you include reflective attachments for the barn doors similar to Flolight's LED fixtures?
Yes, we’ll use reflective intensifiers attached with Velcro.
11) What batteries will work with the lights? Voltage range? What do you recommend?
I recommend something in the 150WH range in AB or V mount types which are normally around 14V to 15V or so. I haven’t done the tests yet with various kinds but will be by end of October.
12) Can I hook up batteries or battery belts without requiring the optional adapter plates?
Yes, the power input on the back of the unit from our enclosed power supply is a 4 pin XLR male. Thus, if you have a power accessory with a 4 pin XLR female on a cable, you could attach to that power connector and replace the power supply with whatever it is you have. I recommend using only voltages in the range of 12v to 15V DC though.
13). What is the power consumption?
About 50 watts at 12VDC.
14) Do you sell stands for them? What do you recommend and how much do they cost?
Yes we have stands on the site—5 different models from small to heavy duty C-Stand. Something like our CL-LS3 stand is very small and lightweight and a good pairing with this fixture.
15) Will you offer cases for a kit of two, three or four?
The only case we offer at this time is the free one for just one unit. I have other cases, but they are very large and not meant specifically for this fixture. We’ll see what demand there is for multi-cases and make one available as that becomes more clear.
16) Will you offer an extra discount when purchasing multiple lights?
No other discounts at this time. We are already a manufacturer direct pricing model and heavily discounted.
17) Will the lights actually ship in December, or not until next year?
Hopefully by December if no unforeseen delays come into play.
18) Will there be any way to use remote dimming control or DMX control with these lights?
No DMX capability at this time.
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Pawel Achtel
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With all due respect, this sounds too good to be true.
A typical low voltage 250W tungsten HLX globe (Osram HLX 64655) outputs 10,000 lm. A 650W mains Osram HLX 64540 outputs 20,000 lm.
I seriusly doubt you can get similar output from a 50W LED array.
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Richard, the CL-LED600 sounds like an excellent deal for the money, please sign me up for two with the V mount plate right away
I read on your homepage that shipping to Europe is best handled manually. An email to info [at] coollights.biz will be sufficient, how to transfer the credit card information when not using your secured online ordering system? Will the items ship directly from China or out of the US? From the US, FedEx seems to work reasonably well for Austria.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike, we aren't able to take credit card from outside of the USA right now. We have handled international transactions with paypal or bank transfer up to this point. As to whether shipping direct from China or USA, we have found sometimes that it is better to ship from the USA but we will look at that again this time to see if there's any other method we can use to get these to Europe direct from China so you won't have to wait so long.
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
How can someone become a Reduser early adopter?
Just send an email to info@coollights.biz with the quantity you want and any accessories. Mention CL-LED600 in the subject line. Thanks!
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
If you compare just by lumens you're right. LEDs are not like light bulbs though and can't be thought of in the same paradigm. Bulbs emit all their light energy in a 360 degree pattern around the bulb and require a reflector to help make them more efficient. Thus a lot of light is wasted. An LED, like a 5mm LED emits all its energy from the top in whatever beam angle its concentrated to by the lens. No wasted light energy from the sides and no need for a reflector. You can't design them into a conventional fixture like a fresnel or par and expect to get good results. You make a panel and array of them to use them to their fullest.
Thus, in an array of LEDs, you have a bunch of small point light sources that all contribute to making one big and bright beam. The drawback is multiple shadows.
I never said this was a direct replacement for HMIs or fluorescents. I know some other companies may be saying that but I never did.
It's another tool in the kit and that's all, just use it for what its good for and don't try to make it work for things it wouldn't be good for.
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Pawel Achtel
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Well, what else can you compare? You can't compare lux ilumination because this depends on the surface area being iluminated, which is expressed in...well, lumens. That's the only measure of the actual brightness or efficacy per watt that I know of.
Reflectors usually reflect up to 95% of visible light. Let's say 50%, for argument's sake.
I still doubt a 50W LED can produce similar brightness as even 150W halogen light (~6000 lm output from a $5 HLX globe x 50% = 3000 lm). What photometric data is then similar to an output of a 600W halogen light?
Yannick Hagman
Well-known member
At least the litepanel 12x12 frame doesn't even come close to my 150w dedolgiht (which is 600w ordinary light). I've seen it in person, it has a very quick fall-off also.
David Wyatt
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Hey everyone - you better get on the LED bandwagon...looks like it could do your lead actors a world of good in more ways than one :wink:
http://gizmodo.com/5066389/leds-may-really-be-the-wondergadget-now-they-can-banish-wrinkles
http://gizmodo.com/5066389/leds-may-really-be-the-wondergadget-now-they-can-banish-wrinkles
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Hehe, thanks Dave. Another point we can add to the benefits of LEDs for mankind. ;-) I'll wait for further research before I post the miracle wrinkle cure benefit on my product page.
On the issue of LED output Pawel brings up a good point that I'm sure many have thought about. I am posting here the first draft of an article I have been writing for my blog on lumens vs. lux/fc and why LEDs come out as they do despite their weak specs on paper. It follows here:
At one point I was fairly convinced that if you look at lumen output and lumen per watt as your sole points of comparison then LEDs don’t add up to being usable as real lighting. This conviction kept me from working much with LEDs or trying to make a product. I saw some claims about photometrics of real world LED fixtures and felt I needed to know more though. It wasn’t until I started experimenting with LEDs that I started to understand how efficient they are in terms of little light waste and lumens per watt doesn’t tell the entire story by itself either. So, you either have to believe the specs that companies post for their products or do your own in depth investigation.
All this being said though, I won’t take the view with what’s available today, that LEDs will replace everything from tungsten to fluorescents to HMI in a short time. LEDs are still in an early stage of development and should be taken like that. In my opinion, because of their stage of evolution, LEDs have their own niche uses, particularly where batteries as a power supply are appropriate, but aren’t a one-to-one replacement for any other established lighting tools (yet). Consider LEDs and the fixtures they come in on their own merits and you won’t be disappointed with what you can do with them. To accept this and to understand how LEDs, which on paper seem to not come even close to some existing light sources, can actually be more efficient than it would seem possible, we need to understand what these lumen specifications are and what they’re really meant to be used for. We will see why lumen output of bulbs is really only interesting when comparing bulbs and not fixtures. Said another way: why do photography/film/video people all want to know “photometrics” or light meter readings from various fixtures?
Light output from bulb manufacturers is measured in lumens simply because they have no way of knowing all the different fixture configurations the bulb may be used in, nor do they care. You never see light meters or color temperature meters at a bulb or LED manufacturer. They know for instance that correlated color temperature can’t accurately be measured on many types of new technology sources by anything that can fit in the back pocket of your jeans—particularly if that source is not full spectrum. They only use integrating spheres with attached spectroradiometic computer peripherals to obtain specs in the form of a spectral anaylsis because they know this is the only real way to measure what they need for quality control, sales and marketing purposes. They measure the specs of a bare bulb that’s literally dangling at the end of a wire in an integrating sphere and then that’s used as a basis of comparison between one bulb and the next. Once you get to fixtures in combination with bulbs though, you’re talking about beams being possible, different efficiencies and uses. No longer just light radiating 360 degrees around the bulb and it dangling on the end of a cord in a pure white and perfect sphere to measure its output—we’re coming out of the laboratory into the real world.
LED manufacturers are following that measurement methodology as well. The problem with this measurement quality control and sales paradigm for many types of LEDs though is that the LED IS a self-contained micro fixture already (which by itself isn’t much use for any real lighting). What other bulb can you think of that has a spot lens built right in? This would never be economical for glass bulbs with their relatively short life and works in the LED world precisely because of their long life. They do have an efficient lens already built in (and no reflector needed as that doesn’t work anyway for 5mm types), but we can’t do much with a micro fixture though! We need a bunch of them to make a “macro” fixture. A “digital” light (so-to-speak), just like we make displays out of pixels (one pixel won’t do us much good), we’re making a usable light out a bunch of 5mm LEDs. Because of this, our macro LED fixture will never be a perfect point light source like a fresnel or par spotlight. However, for most uses, this may work fine for us; but it will never for instance, cast one shadow. It will give multiple shadows or have shadow behavior close to that of fluorescent lighting—very undefined shadows or “pixelated” kinds of shadows (if you look closely). Because of this, an LED array won’t render a cucaloris pattern correctly on a wall. So we’ll have to go back to our conventional fresnel or ellipsoidal spotlights with their single point light source, when we want to do that.
To illustrate how lumens mean nothing really once you actually get into a real-world situation, let’s take a look at some example fixtures that all use the Osram 575W HMI bulb:
http://www.bulbman.com/index.php?main_page=product_bulb_info&cPath=5399&products_id=10858
Lumen output is 49,000 lumens. Nice, but it really doesn’t tell us much as the average person wouldn’t really know what that means. Get a fixture to use it in like the Arri-X5 HMI 575w floodlight for instance:
http://www.arri-ebulletin.com/dec06/PDFs/arrixbrochure.pdf
Once you see the manifestation in this first fixture, you believe you know what 49,000 lumens is by shining it on a wall or a scene/subject. You mark this all in your mind as 49,000 lumens: a very bright, daylight white output at 6000K correlated color temperature. It’s a really simple fixture too, just a reflector, clear safety lens and the bulb. Next, take a 575w HMI fresnel like the Arri Compact 575w HMI for example:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/72166-REG/Arri_505205_Compact_575W_HMI_Fresnel.html
Seems a bit stronger and perhaps you account for that by the lens addition—but then you learn of a fixture that’s even more powerful but uses the same bulb: an Arri 575w HMI Par.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/141812-REG/Arri_505305_Arrisun_5_575W_HMI.html
It’s visibly brighter than the other two and puts out more light all by itself, with just the safety glass lens on the front. Looking inside, perhaps you realize the efficient parabolic reflector, with bulb in the middle, helps harness the 360 degree output better than the fresnel or floodlight. You also find out that there are other lenses you can apply to the front of this par from a super wide beam lens (which scatters all the light energy over a wider beam and is thus not concentrated enough to send so much light out a far distance) to a super spot lens (which does concentrate and allows more light energy to throw farther—harnessing more of the light energy into one direction). Your vision of 49,000 lumens and what it means has been totally remade. If we carry this one step further and find a really well made ellipsoidal or follow spot made for the 575w HMI bulb, you’ll see the specs are even more impressive thanks to the convex spot lens. The point has been made though.
This is when you realize that it’s not just about the bulb but about the entire system. All these are using the same bulb, the same 49,000 lumens, but they’re doing different things with it and getting different results. Lumens per watt calculations do you no good either other than for comparing bulb efficiencies at a very high level—all these use the same 86 lumen per watt solution but some are clearly getting more for their ‘86’ than others.
That’s why photometrics are a more viable way to measure output from fixtures and ‘throw’ for photographers because we’re out of the 360 degree world of the bulb by itself and into the manufactured “beam” of a fixture system and what it can do for us. You should now understand why lumen output is only a way to compare bulbs (and in a weak manner for LEDs too) but tells you nothing of the actual system (housing, reflector, focusing, lens, power supply, etc.) that the bulb will be used in—any of which may be more efficient than another. Nor does it tell you anything about throw which is important as well. Changing the beam angle clearly changes the throw and therefore more intensity concentrated in one spot. That’s relevant because sometimes we need that spot concentrated as much as possible to “fight daylight.” If you put a light meter in that spot, it tells the story. Lux or footcandles as measured by that meter are the preferred methods used by photographers and what they most care about.
Lux is simply the amount of lumens found in one square meter produced by whatever source we’re measuring. Foot candles are Lux divided by 10.76 (or for simplicity sake just by 10 as much of the lighting industry does). Lumens by themselves don’t take into account any distance or area so aren’t useful for actual real world uses with fixtures.
Look at the photometrics of these three previous example fixtures, all using the same type bulb / lumen spec to illustrate the point:
End of Part I
On the issue of LED output Pawel brings up a good point that I'm sure many have thought about. I am posting here the first draft of an article I have been writing for my blog on lumens vs. lux/fc and why LEDs come out as they do despite their weak specs on paper. It follows here:
At one point I was fairly convinced that if you look at lumen output and lumen per watt as your sole points of comparison then LEDs don’t add up to being usable as real lighting. This conviction kept me from working much with LEDs or trying to make a product. I saw some claims about photometrics of real world LED fixtures and felt I needed to know more though. It wasn’t until I started experimenting with LEDs that I started to understand how efficient they are in terms of little light waste and lumens per watt doesn’t tell the entire story by itself either. So, you either have to believe the specs that companies post for their products or do your own in depth investigation.
All this being said though, I won’t take the view with what’s available today, that LEDs will replace everything from tungsten to fluorescents to HMI in a short time. LEDs are still in an early stage of development and should be taken like that. In my opinion, because of their stage of evolution, LEDs have their own niche uses, particularly where batteries as a power supply are appropriate, but aren’t a one-to-one replacement for any other established lighting tools (yet). Consider LEDs and the fixtures they come in on their own merits and you won’t be disappointed with what you can do with them. To accept this and to understand how LEDs, which on paper seem to not come even close to some existing light sources, can actually be more efficient than it would seem possible, we need to understand what these lumen specifications are and what they’re really meant to be used for. We will see why lumen output of bulbs is really only interesting when comparing bulbs and not fixtures. Said another way: why do photography/film/video people all want to know “photometrics” or light meter readings from various fixtures?
Light output from bulb manufacturers is measured in lumens simply because they have no way of knowing all the different fixture configurations the bulb may be used in, nor do they care. You never see light meters or color temperature meters at a bulb or LED manufacturer. They know for instance that correlated color temperature can’t accurately be measured on many types of new technology sources by anything that can fit in the back pocket of your jeans—particularly if that source is not full spectrum. They only use integrating spheres with attached spectroradiometic computer peripherals to obtain specs in the form of a spectral anaylsis because they know this is the only real way to measure what they need for quality control, sales and marketing purposes. They measure the specs of a bare bulb that’s literally dangling at the end of a wire in an integrating sphere and then that’s used as a basis of comparison between one bulb and the next. Once you get to fixtures in combination with bulbs though, you’re talking about beams being possible, different efficiencies and uses. No longer just light radiating 360 degrees around the bulb and it dangling on the end of a cord in a pure white and perfect sphere to measure its output—we’re coming out of the laboratory into the real world.
LED manufacturers are following that measurement methodology as well. The problem with this measurement quality control and sales paradigm for many types of LEDs though is that the LED IS a self-contained micro fixture already (which by itself isn’t much use for any real lighting). What other bulb can you think of that has a spot lens built right in? This would never be economical for glass bulbs with their relatively short life and works in the LED world precisely because of their long life. They do have an efficient lens already built in (and no reflector needed as that doesn’t work anyway for 5mm types), but we can’t do much with a micro fixture though! We need a bunch of them to make a “macro” fixture. A “digital” light (so-to-speak), just like we make displays out of pixels (one pixel won’t do us much good), we’re making a usable light out a bunch of 5mm LEDs. Because of this, our macro LED fixture will never be a perfect point light source like a fresnel or par spotlight. However, for most uses, this may work fine for us; but it will never for instance, cast one shadow. It will give multiple shadows or have shadow behavior close to that of fluorescent lighting—very undefined shadows or “pixelated” kinds of shadows (if you look closely). Because of this, an LED array won’t render a cucaloris pattern correctly on a wall. So we’ll have to go back to our conventional fresnel or ellipsoidal spotlights with their single point light source, when we want to do that.
To illustrate how lumens mean nothing really once you actually get into a real-world situation, let’s take a look at some example fixtures that all use the Osram 575W HMI bulb:
http://www.bulbman.com/index.php?main_page=product_bulb_info&cPath=5399&products_id=10858
Lumen output is 49,000 lumens. Nice, but it really doesn’t tell us much as the average person wouldn’t really know what that means. Get a fixture to use it in like the Arri-X5 HMI 575w floodlight for instance:
http://www.arri-ebulletin.com/dec06/PDFs/arrixbrochure.pdf
Once you see the manifestation in this first fixture, you believe you know what 49,000 lumens is by shining it on a wall or a scene/subject. You mark this all in your mind as 49,000 lumens: a very bright, daylight white output at 6000K correlated color temperature. It’s a really simple fixture too, just a reflector, clear safety lens and the bulb. Next, take a 575w HMI fresnel like the Arri Compact 575w HMI for example:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/72166-REG/Arri_505205_Compact_575W_HMI_Fresnel.html
Seems a bit stronger and perhaps you account for that by the lens addition—but then you learn of a fixture that’s even more powerful but uses the same bulb: an Arri 575w HMI Par.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/141812-REG/Arri_505305_Arrisun_5_575W_HMI.html
It’s visibly brighter than the other two and puts out more light all by itself, with just the safety glass lens on the front. Looking inside, perhaps you realize the efficient parabolic reflector, with bulb in the middle, helps harness the 360 degree output better than the fresnel or floodlight. You also find out that there are other lenses you can apply to the front of this par from a super wide beam lens (which scatters all the light energy over a wider beam and is thus not concentrated enough to send so much light out a far distance) to a super spot lens (which does concentrate and allows more light energy to throw farther—harnessing more of the light energy into one direction). Your vision of 49,000 lumens and what it means has been totally remade. If we carry this one step further and find a really well made ellipsoidal or follow spot made for the 575w HMI bulb, you’ll see the specs are even more impressive thanks to the convex spot lens. The point has been made though.
This is when you realize that it’s not just about the bulb but about the entire system. All these are using the same bulb, the same 49,000 lumens, but they’re doing different things with it and getting different results. Lumens per watt calculations do you no good either other than for comparing bulb efficiencies at a very high level—all these use the same 86 lumen per watt solution but some are clearly getting more for their ‘86’ than others.
That’s why photometrics are a more viable way to measure output from fixtures and ‘throw’ for photographers because we’re out of the 360 degree world of the bulb by itself and into the manufactured “beam” of a fixture system and what it can do for us. You should now understand why lumen output is only a way to compare bulbs (and in a weak manner for LEDs too) but tells you nothing of the actual system (housing, reflector, focusing, lens, power supply, etc.) that the bulb will be used in—any of which may be more efficient than another. Nor does it tell you anything about throw which is important as well. Changing the beam angle clearly changes the throw and therefore more intensity concentrated in one spot. That’s relevant because sometimes we need that spot concentrated as much as possible to “fight daylight.” If you put a light meter in that spot, it tells the story. Lux or footcandles as measured by that meter are the preferred methods used by photographers and what they most care about.
Lux is simply the amount of lumens found in one square meter produced by whatever source we’re measuring. Foot candles are Lux divided by 10.76 (or for simplicity sake just by 10 as much of the lighting industry does). Lumens by themselves don’t take into account any distance or area so aren’t useful for actual real world uses with fixtures.
Look at the photometrics of these three previous example fixtures, all using the same type bulb / lumen spec to illustrate the point:
End of Part I
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Part II
575w HMI Arri-X5 Floodlight (just a flood fixture with no focusing ability or lens):
http://www.arri.de/infodown/light/broch/arri_lighting_catalog_2002_usa.pdf
28 foot candles at 20 feet
575w Compact HMI Fresnel (focusing ability, mediocre mirror/bulb setup and fixed Fresnel lens—can’t change easily):
http://www.arri.de/infodown/light/broch/arri_lighting_catalog_2002_usa.pdf
75 foot candles at 20 feet in flood mode
625 foot candles at 20 feet in spot mode
575w HMI Par (super efficient par reflector plus interchangeable lenses to focus the beam):
http://www.arri.de/infodown/light/broch/arri_lighting_catalog_2002_usa.pdf
113 foot candles at 20 feet with super wide lens (50 degree)
250 foot candles at 20 feet with wide lens (20 x 45 degree)
750 foot candles at 20 feet with medium lens (10 x 20 degree)
1875 foot candles at 20 feet with spot lens (9 degree beam)
5000 foot candles at 20 feet with super spot lens (5 degree beam)
Remember at the beginning when you thought you knew what 49,000 lumens were with the 575 floodlight? We went from 28 foot candles to 5000 foot candles and never changed the bulb! Can you start to see how lumens are irrelevant when considering anything other than a bulb by itself?
So, what lens and mirror are being used is super relevant in comparing how the same bulb will be used to get different results. How does all this relate to LEDs being too weak to use or not? Take an example where you choose one of the weaker configurations for the 575w HMI above like the flood or the fresnel. Now, choose a weaker bulb too, but put it in a more efficient housing, mirror and lens and get the same output as the higher wattage bulb in the fresnel or flood fixture.
For instance, take the CDM 150 type metal halide bulb with lumen output of about 12,000 lumens. Lumens per watt is about the same as the 575w bulb at 86 LPW. However, it’s a fourth of the lumen output of the 575w HMI bulb and also almost a fourth of the wattage draw too—how could the 150w CDM ever be a match for the 575w HMI bulb?
Here’s how to get that unfair advantage: put the 150 in an ellipsoidal fixture. Effectively a small spotlight with super efficient reflector, mirror and convex lens.
http://mail.altmanltg.com/publicsynergy/docs/BDBinDoc.asp?Id={30DB3121-48EE-476A-8FFC-4E0A9ECD1025}
189 foot candles at 20 feet in wide 35 degree spot mode
527 foot candles at 20 feet in narrow 15 degree spot mode
Almost as good as the HMI 575w Fresnel in spot mode but only drawing 150w to do that. Pretty amazing too, when you compare it to the expensive 575w par with wide and super wide lenses. Remember how we were scattering the 575w par light energy in a wider area and not getting so much throw? You gave up something to do that.
If all you knew how to do was compare lumens, and lumen per watt figures, it wouldn’t tell the whole story about how a smaller wattage bulb (or LED for that matter) with weaker specs on paper can actually do better than the other higher wattage bulb with better specs by using it to its best advantage. You have to get off comparing things on paper and do some real world comparisons and research using a light meter to see any of this though.
Back to LEDs: just think of a 5mm LED as a miniature spotlight with a very efficient lens that trains the light forward with as little waste to the sides as possible. Primarily though, the degree of beam angle in the LED (or for that matter the lens of a regular fixture) is a main factor in what you’ll get out of the fixture in the way of strength.
You can buy 5mm LEDs in practically any beam angle you want. You may find differences in color rendering (CRI), color temperature issues, etc. though when trying to find the ultimate LED for photographic use—as I did. Ideally, you’d get something like a 20 to 30 degree beam LED and you’d really have an efficient setup with most of the light energy going forward and not being wasted. Then to get a bigger beam, just keep adding LEDs to your array until the beam is the size you want—creating our “digital” beam out of LED “pixels”. That works until you consider CRI which is terrible in such a sharp angle LED (most of the time). It’s not until you get to the more “flood” class of LED (45 degree and higher) that you will start to see a better CRI.
Another way to keep things efficient and bright is to choose an LED of 8000K or higher color temperature with 30 degree beam angle. 8000K to 9000K LEDs have better output as a general rule (than those in the lower ranges from daylight down to tungsten), and seem to more easily obtain a better CRI (if it’s a relatively good quality LED). Photographers won’t appreciate it because its not 5600K “daylight”, but you could gel it down when you need something lower. 5mm LED daylight exceptions exist but they’re more expensive and the fixture doesn’t add up in terms of cost/output.
1W to 5W LEDs operate under different rules as well and other things are possible when using those—but that’s another story for another day and another product.
Lets look at some photometrics comparing LED products with an Arri 650w tungsten fresnel. All readings below are in lux.
Fixture .6m 1.1m 2.1m
Arri 650w 12 degree 7694 2770 693
Arri 650w 30 degree 2542 915 229
Arri 650w 52 degree 1417 510 128
Litepanels 1 x 1 spot 30 degree ???? 1800 ???
Litepanels 1 x 1 flood 45 degree ???? 1400 ???
Lishuai (Flolights) 500 50 degree 3300 1400 360
*Cool Lights 600 (experimental 30 deg) 5400 2600 790
**Cool Lights 600 (45 degree) --- Coming soon ---
***Cool Lights 600 (60 degr LED tube) 3100 1100 330
*The Cool Lights 600 “experimental 30 degree” was an earlier prototype that we’re not producing. It was 8500K to obtain the CRI we wanted in that kind of beam angle and I think most may not be interested in that high of a color temperature so we won’t produce it for now. But, you can see my point that I made that the higher color temperatures in the 8000K to 9000K range of LEDs are able to put out more light than daylight and below LEDs and in addition, have higher CRI as well as ability to use in spot mode and not get strange color fringing issues.
**The Cool Lights 45 degree panel is having some adjustments made to the current the LEDs are using from the driver and this directly affects the light output so I’m waiting until we’re finished with that before I post final photometrics. Current photometrics with this underdriven panel show it to be about the same as the Lishuai 500 but that’s because we were currently using an “underdriven” LED to see what we could save in energy usage and LED life. The final version will be driven at nominal specs for LEDs which are 20ma. The result should be great and superior to the “500”.
***The Cool Lights 600 60 degree LED tube is an experimental tube we’re working with now. We will incorporate this or more probably a 45 degree version into a future fixture in 2 foot and 4 foot versions to produce a 1200 or 2400 LED panel.
All this illustrates why its totally possible for an array of micro-spotlight LEDs, which on paper have weaker specs, and have them roughly equal to a 650w Fresnel when you create a macro fixture out of them. The lumen output of our 45 degree panel is actually about 2000 lumens when considering the measurements of output of each individual LED (as measured in a small integrating sphere made just for LEDs), then taking that figure and multiplying by 600 for the number of LEDs in the array. Considered by itself and only knowing that spec, you’d think the panel was indeed about as strong as a 100w tungsten bulb (tungsten with an efficiency of about 20 lumens per watt) which would also be about 2000 lumens. But knowing the rest of the story, that you got here, about how bulbs work, how they’re integrated into fixtures and systems and finally comparing photometrics and not lumens, you can start to understand how such claims about such a panel really being equivalent to a 650w Fresnel spotlight are possible—but with the caveat of a bit different qualities than the normal single point light source type of fresnel spotlight though.
In conclusion, if you look at lumen figures of bulbs and lumens per watt alone, it doesn’t tell the whole story. You’ll need to start considering photometrics for real comparisons of what photographic / film lighting can really do. Plus, you’ll have to approach a new paradigm like LEDs with an open mind, realize they are in an early development stage and that they are not a one-to-one replacement for anything, but rather have their own applications that they are strong in and should be considered as just another tool in the lighting arsenal. Not at all to replace the other tools but complement them, at least for now.
575w HMI Arri-X5 Floodlight (just a flood fixture with no focusing ability or lens):
http://www.arri.de/infodown/light/broch/arri_lighting_catalog_2002_usa.pdf
28 foot candles at 20 feet
575w Compact HMI Fresnel (focusing ability, mediocre mirror/bulb setup and fixed Fresnel lens—can’t change easily):
http://www.arri.de/infodown/light/broch/arri_lighting_catalog_2002_usa.pdf
75 foot candles at 20 feet in flood mode
625 foot candles at 20 feet in spot mode
575w HMI Par (super efficient par reflector plus interchangeable lenses to focus the beam):
http://www.arri.de/infodown/light/broch/arri_lighting_catalog_2002_usa.pdf
113 foot candles at 20 feet with super wide lens (50 degree)
250 foot candles at 20 feet with wide lens (20 x 45 degree)
750 foot candles at 20 feet with medium lens (10 x 20 degree)
1875 foot candles at 20 feet with spot lens (9 degree beam)
5000 foot candles at 20 feet with super spot lens (5 degree beam)
Remember at the beginning when you thought you knew what 49,000 lumens were with the 575 floodlight? We went from 28 foot candles to 5000 foot candles and never changed the bulb! Can you start to see how lumens are irrelevant when considering anything other than a bulb by itself?
So, what lens and mirror are being used is super relevant in comparing how the same bulb will be used to get different results. How does all this relate to LEDs being too weak to use or not? Take an example where you choose one of the weaker configurations for the 575w HMI above like the flood or the fresnel. Now, choose a weaker bulb too, but put it in a more efficient housing, mirror and lens and get the same output as the higher wattage bulb in the fresnel or flood fixture.
For instance, take the CDM 150 type metal halide bulb with lumen output of about 12,000 lumens. Lumens per watt is about the same as the 575w bulb at 86 LPW. However, it’s a fourth of the lumen output of the 575w HMI bulb and also almost a fourth of the wattage draw too—how could the 150w CDM ever be a match for the 575w HMI bulb?
Here’s how to get that unfair advantage: put the 150 in an ellipsoidal fixture. Effectively a small spotlight with super efficient reflector, mirror and convex lens.
http://mail.altmanltg.com/publicsynergy/docs/BDBinDoc.asp?Id={30DB3121-48EE-476A-8FFC-4E0A9ECD1025}
189 foot candles at 20 feet in wide 35 degree spot mode
527 foot candles at 20 feet in narrow 15 degree spot mode
Almost as good as the HMI 575w Fresnel in spot mode but only drawing 150w to do that. Pretty amazing too, when you compare it to the expensive 575w par with wide and super wide lenses. Remember how we were scattering the 575w par light energy in a wider area and not getting so much throw? You gave up something to do that.
If all you knew how to do was compare lumens, and lumen per watt figures, it wouldn’t tell the whole story about how a smaller wattage bulb (or LED for that matter) with weaker specs on paper can actually do better than the other higher wattage bulb with better specs by using it to its best advantage. You have to get off comparing things on paper and do some real world comparisons and research using a light meter to see any of this though.
Back to LEDs: just think of a 5mm LED as a miniature spotlight with a very efficient lens that trains the light forward with as little waste to the sides as possible. Primarily though, the degree of beam angle in the LED (or for that matter the lens of a regular fixture) is a main factor in what you’ll get out of the fixture in the way of strength.
You can buy 5mm LEDs in practically any beam angle you want. You may find differences in color rendering (CRI), color temperature issues, etc. though when trying to find the ultimate LED for photographic use—as I did. Ideally, you’d get something like a 20 to 30 degree beam LED and you’d really have an efficient setup with most of the light energy going forward and not being wasted. Then to get a bigger beam, just keep adding LEDs to your array until the beam is the size you want—creating our “digital” beam out of LED “pixels”. That works until you consider CRI which is terrible in such a sharp angle LED (most of the time). It’s not until you get to the more “flood” class of LED (45 degree and higher) that you will start to see a better CRI.
Another way to keep things efficient and bright is to choose an LED of 8000K or higher color temperature with 30 degree beam angle. 8000K to 9000K LEDs have better output as a general rule (than those in the lower ranges from daylight down to tungsten), and seem to more easily obtain a better CRI (if it’s a relatively good quality LED). Photographers won’t appreciate it because its not 5600K “daylight”, but you could gel it down when you need something lower. 5mm LED daylight exceptions exist but they’re more expensive and the fixture doesn’t add up in terms of cost/output.
1W to 5W LEDs operate under different rules as well and other things are possible when using those—but that’s another story for another day and another product.
Lets look at some photometrics comparing LED products with an Arri 650w tungsten fresnel. All readings below are in lux.
Fixture .6m 1.1m 2.1m
Arri 650w 12 degree 7694 2770 693
Arri 650w 30 degree 2542 915 229
Arri 650w 52 degree 1417 510 128
Litepanels 1 x 1 spot 30 degree ???? 1800 ???
Litepanels 1 x 1 flood 45 degree ???? 1400 ???
Lishuai (Flolights) 500 50 degree 3300 1400 360
*Cool Lights 600 (experimental 30 deg) 5400 2600 790
**Cool Lights 600 (45 degree) --- Coming soon ---
***Cool Lights 600 (60 degr LED tube) 3100 1100 330
*The Cool Lights 600 “experimental 30 degree” was an earlier prototype that we’re not producing. It was 8500K to obtain the CRI we wanted in that kind of beam angle and I think most may not be interested in that high of a color temperature so we won’t produce it for now. But, you can see my point that I made that the higher color temperatures in the 8000K to 9000K range of LEDs are able to put out more light than daylight and below LEDs and in addition, have higher CRI as well as ability to use in spot mode and not get strange color fringing issues.
**The Cool Lights 45 degree panel is having some adjustments made to the current the LEDs are using from the driver and this directly affects the light output so I’m waiting until we’re finished with that before I post final photometrics. Current photometrics with this underdriven panel show it to be about the same as the Lishuai 500 but that’s because we were currently using an “underdriven” LED to see what we could save in energy usage and LED life. The final version will be driven at nominal specs for LEDs which are 20ma. The result should be great and superior to the “500”.
***The Cool Lights 600 60 degree LED tube is an experimental tube we’re working with now. We will incorporate this or more probably a 45 degree version into a future fixture in 2 foot and 4 foot versions to produce a 1200 or 2400 LED panel.
All this illustrates why its totally possible for an array of micro-spotlight LEDs, which on paper have weaker specs, and have them roughly equal to a 650w Fresnel when you create a macro fixture out of them. The lumen output of our 45 degree panel is actually about 2000 lumens when considering the measurements of output of each individual LED (as measured in a small integrating sphere made just for LEDs), then taking that figure and multiplying by 600 for the number of LEDs in the array. Considered by itself and only knowing that spec, you’d think the panel was indeed about as strong as a 100w tungsten bulb (tungsten with an efficiency of about 20 lumens per watt) which would also be about 2000 lumens. But knowing the rest of the story, that you got here, about how bulbs work, how they’re integrated into fixtures and systems and finally comparing photometrics and not lumens, you can start to understand how such claims about such a panel really being equivalent to a 650w Fresnel spotlight are possible—but with the caveat of a bit different qualities than the normal single point light source type of fresnel spotlight though.
In conclusion, if you look at lumen figures of bulbs and lumens per watt alone, it doesn’t tell the whole story. You’ll need to start considering photometrics for real comparisons of what photographic / film lighting can really do. Plus, you’ll have to approach a new paradigm like LEDs with an open mind, realize they are in an early development stage and that they are not a one-to-one replacement for anything, but rather have their own applications that they are strong in and should be considered as just another tool in the lighting arsenal. Not at all to replace the other tools but complement them, at least for now.
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Hey Muroshi,
Which one was it flood or spot type panel? I'm guessing flood most likely if it had a quicker falloff.
Yannick Hagman
Well-known member
Richard, sorry, I dunno.
Mark Phelan
Well-known member
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- Oct 22, 2007
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- 2,720
- Reaction score
- 14
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I just received a 12" x 12" LED Panel from LuminousFilm and the first thing I noticed is that the LED lights are only on two sides, not four, like the Rosco Lite Pad HO I demoed last week. Also, the laser etched lines are not as close together, thus not creating as much light. While these might be made by the same manufacturer, it looks like the cost savings of the LuminousFilm panel comes with the price of lower output also.
Yannick Hagman
Well-known member
He seems to sell them also:
12x12, LED Edge-lit Panel, Daylight, No Frame, LED's on 4 edges
12x12-inch, LED Edge-lit Panel, No Frame, 100-240vac to 12vdc wall transformer. Color = Warm White LED's on 4 edges NOTE: Custom sizes are available. Lead time is about 14-days!!!
Price: $254.00
You seem to have ordered:
12x12, LED Edge-lit Panel, Daylight, No Frame
12x12-inch, LED Edge-lit Panel, No Frame, 100-240vac to 12vdc wall transformer. Color temperature ~5,500K, Brightness 220 Cd/m2. NOTE: Custom sizes are available. Lead time is about 14-days!!!
Price: $146.92
12x12, LED Edge-lit Panel, Daylight, No Frame, LED's on 4 edges
12x12-inch, LED Edge-lit Panel, No Frame, 100-240vac to 12vdc wall transformer. Color = Warm White LED's on 4 edges NOTE: Custom sizes are available. Lead time is about 14-days!!!
Price: $254.00
You seem to have ordered:
12x12, LED Edge-lit Panel, Daylight, No Frame
12x12-inch, LED Edge-lit Panel, No Frame, 100-240vac to 12vdc wall transformer. Color temperature ~5,500K, Brightness 220 Cd/m2. NOTE: Custom sizes are available. Lead time is about 14-days!!!
Price: $146.92
- Banned
- #98
Pawel Achtel
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- Oct 12, 2007
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Cool Lights 600
Cool Lights 600
So when Cool Lights 600 are going to be available, how much they cost, how do they look like (pictures?), what other features they offer?
Cool Lights 600
So when Cool Lights 600 are going to be available, how much they cost, how do they look like (pictures?), what other features they offer?
donatello b
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Vinny Duwe
Well-known member
TorchLED Dimmable LED Light Fixtures NOW AVAILABLE
TorchLED Dimmable LED Light Fixtures NOW AVAILABLE
Keeping up with our promise to introduce new solutions for the pro video industry Switronix has released the TorchLED Modular Dimmable Light line . Ranging from outputs of 30 to 75 watts these LED light fixtures are sure to impress while be incredibly power effiicient with a max draw of 10w.
For more information Visit: www.torchled.com
TorchLED Dimmable LED Light Fixtures NOW AVAILABLE
Keeping up with our promise to introduce new solutions for the pro video industry Switronix has released the TorchLED Modular Dimmable Light line . Ranging from outputs of 30 to 75 watts these LED light fixtures are sure to impress while be incredibly power effiicient with a max draw of 10w.
For more information Visit: www.torchled.com