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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ask David Mullen ANYTHING

tracking the sun

tracking the sun

dear Mr. Mullen,
i don't know if you use sunpath software and the compass for tracking the sun.
my question is:
how do you use sunPATH in places that compasses are unreliable,
where there are too many magnetic deviations generated by underground pipes and cables, cars, manhole covers and structural steel? A wrong magnetic reading is worse than no reading because it offers false security.

do you have tips to give me or link to redirect me to read how i can i solve this problems?
thanks
ivan
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I've had only a few projects where the collaboration was less than successful, mainly because the director was inconsistent and uncommunicative, so I could never get in sync with them since they constantly changed their minds about what they wanted and what the look was. But you have to keep in mind that the director is under a lot of pressure, and he may be taking out performance problems or script problems out on the DP or the crew as a way of venting frustration or in some panicked way of saving the project through technical tricks to overcome the acting or writing problems. You'll find that when the script is good and the actors are good, generally the production runs along more smoothly because the main components are working.
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Thanks for such a legnthy post! Can I ask about your personal experaince of such less successful collaborations.. Have there been any instances where the 'look' originally discussed for the film changed so dramatically during post-production the you've felt that you couldn't continue? Have you ever had to leave a project because you didnt think it was going to do your career any favours?
 
shiny said:
dear Mr. Mullen,
i don't know if you use sunpath software and the compass for tracking the sun.
my question is:
how do you use sunPATH in places that compasses are unreliable,
where there are too many magnetic deviations generated by underground pipes and cables, cars, manhole covers and structural steel? A wrong magnetic reading is worse than no reading because it offers false security.

do you have tips to give me or link to redirect me to read how i can i solve this problems?
thanks
ivan
Click to expand...

I usually just use a compass and look online as to where the sun will be on different days. But a lot of people use the sunPATH software. I haven't been somewhere outdoors where a compass didn't work. And you can always just look up at the sky and guess where the sun will rise and set, or come back and do a time of day study (a photo once and hour).
 
Gary Paul Walker said:
Have there been any instances where the 'look' originally discussed for the film changed so dramatically during post-production the you've felt that you couldn't continue? Have you ever had to leave a project because you didnt think it was going to do your career any favours?
Click to expand...

I've had a shot severely changed, but not the overall look, other than perhaps the overall look is a bit lighter than what I wanted, but that happens all the time. I've never left a project for any reasons.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Just your basic white round paper lantern like you see at CostPlus or Ikea:
http://www.paperlanternstore.com/evriropala.html

They have just a standard Edison light bulb socket on the end of a cord. I usually make a porcelain socket though from a hardware store because the plastic sockets in theory shouldn't have anything more than a 60w bulb in them, though I've used brighter bulbs than that. With a porcelain socket, I feel comfortable putting a 250w or 500w photoflood in them.

I'm not sure what you mean by inconsistent light though. It's just a light bulb inside a paper ball!
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Thanks for that info! It seems like blue or orange etc... would even be a good substitute for colored gels.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Just your basic white round paper lantern like you see at CostPlus or Ikea:
http://www.paperlanternstore.com/evriropala.html

They have just a standard Edison light bulb socket on the end of a cord. I usually make a porcelain socket though from a hardware store because the plastic sockets in theory shouldn't have anything more than a 60w bulb in them, though I've used brighter bulbs than that. With a porcelain socket, I feel comfortable putting a 250w or 500w photoflood in them.

I'm not sure what you mean by inconsistent light though. It's just a light bulb inside a paper ball!
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David, have you tried out the white nylon chinese lanterns from that same store? http://www.paperlanternstore.com/whnyla.html

I liked them much better, more durable, don't tear easy or disintegrate in the rain.
 
Originally posted by David Mullen

You use larger lights to light larger spaces from further back so that the fall-off across the room is not as dramatic as a smaller light closer to the subject. This makes it easier to recreate natural daylight effects.

For example, if you have a large window in a living room and outside you want to put a 8'x8' frame of diffusion and fill it with an HMI, probably a 1200w is not going to do it (maybe four together would). Nor would a 1200w fill a large window with a single hard light to simulate the sun (though backed-up, it would fill the large window to simulate the moon at night.) However, in a closer shot, a 1200w with a narrower lens, coming through a smaller window, would create a nice hot rim light on someone.

I would move up to the next sized units, like a 2500w, 4K, and 6K, to see what they can do for you. 12K/18K HMI fresnels are very bulky & heavy units so you need the manpower (and power) to use them.
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David, thank you for that reply. My apologies, I should have been more specific. I was hoping for some insight into the aesthetic qualities of larger instruments. Or are the benefits purely practical like being able to get the light back farther for a straighter beam of light while maintaining the light level you want?

Thanks again.
 
Im looking for some trouble shooting in post. Im getting grey screens during playback on fcp 6.
 
Tyler Black said:
Originally posted by David Mullen



David, thank you for that reply. My apologies, I should have been more specific. I was hoping for some insight into the aesthetic qualities of larger instruments. Or are the benefits purely practical like being able to get the light back farther for a straighter beam of light while maintaining the light level you want?

Thanks again.
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Controlling the degree of fall-off is both a practical and an aesthetic issue. In real life, the light coming through windows does not fall-off in intensity as quickly as does a movie light closer to the subject or right outside a window would. So this affects how the room looks in a wide shot and it can affect the exposure of an actor as they move across the room.

So if recreating natural daylight is a goal, you sometimes need larger units to do the job realistically.

If you have just tiny HMI's and have to light a wide daytime shot of a large room as an actor moves through it, you may be forced to use your small units in more of a spot-lit manner just to get the exposure you need, because they aren't big enough to create a large single soft or hard source from off-camera to covers the space realistically.

Another advantage to creating large amounts of artificial daylight that looks realistic and natural is that the overall light level will be high enough to balance better with background views outside the windows, thus reducing the need to use ND gels on the windows to hold detail. This is useful particularly when the actors have to open windows or go out the door to the exterior.

But think of it mainly as big lights are better at simulating the sun and the sky, which are big lights. And they are better at covering large spaces with a single source -- for example, if you wanted to create the effect of a moonlit field at night.

The thing to remember is that most shoots at some point lose the daylight and end up having to fake daylight inside to finish covering the scene. Sometimes you get lucky and by that point you're just shooting a close-up near a wall and can use a few tiny lights, other times you have a bunch of windows and you find yourself covering them with tracing paper or setting up giant white sheets outside the windows to make it look like daytime. It's not ideal but it happens due to scheduling. I've even had locations for day scenes that were only available to shoot at night.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I usually just use a compass and look online as to where the sun will be on different days. But a lot of people use the sunPATH software. I haven't been somewhere outdoors where a compass didn't work. And you can always just look up at the sky and guess where the sun will rise and set, or come back and do a time of day study (a photo once and hour).
Click to expand...

Sorry not really a question but If you have an iphone you HAVE to get the app called Sun Seeker. It has realtime 3d tracking with the built in GPS- so you click the camera icon and you can literally see where the sun will be at certain times overlaid on a realtime video image. Such a time saver for indoor work and its only $2.99.:001_cool:
 
hunterrichards said:
Sorry not really a question but If you have an iphone you HAVE to get the app called Sun Seeker. It has realtime 3d tracking with the built in GPS- so you click the camera icon and you can literally see where the sun will be at certain times overlaid on a realtime video image. Such a time saver for indoor work and its only $2.99.:001_cool:
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Very cool- great find. The one I have been using for the iPhone has been Helios Sun Position Calculator. But it sounds like this one might be even easier to use.
 
David -

Can you recommend any good lighting workshops in the LA area? Alternately, can I suggest a "David Mullen Shows the Newbs Who's Their Daddy Day" at Red Studios Hollywood? :)

Thanks,
Tim
 
I know this is a bit premature David but I am wondering about your thoughts on the new MX sensor on R1/Epic. I am not likely to be using anything over 1.2 hmi's on the vast majority of my shoots. Do you anticipate the new sensor will change the way you light?

Or more specifically , do you think it will make it easier for smaller kits to cover larger areas. Will it allow for more control of F-stop under low light? In what ways do you think more sensitive sensors (from Red and others) will change the way you work? Any thoughts?
 
I don't think it will change lighting day interiors much where there are advantages to recreating natural light on a large scale so that it stays consistent all day long, and to do that, you need big units to simulate big sources like the sun. In a real day interior, a 1200w outside of a window, even with a spot lens, is not really the same look as the real sun coming through the window. Truth is, even an 18K HMI isn't a perfect match for sunlight, but it is closer than a 1200w.

Sure, in waning daylight, a faster sensor will allow you to work longer in natural light, and in those moments, you'd use small units to augment so as to not overpower the weak natural light.

For night interiors with room lights on, the faster sensor helps of course but it won't fundamentally change the typical lighting one did when using, let's say, 500 ASA film stock. You may use a slightly weaker unit in some cases, that's all, let's say you swap a 1K for a 650w, for example.

For low-light night interiors and exteriors, this is where the faster sensor starts to make a bigger difference, especially lighting night exteriors. But still, if you have to light an entire field in the countryside of a single moonlight effect, you're still going to need a large light on a high platform or crane. You just may be able to get the light a bit further back for more spread.

It will be a bit easier to stop down when you have a focus-pulling challenge.

The thing is that the Genesis and F35 already have a 500 ASA sensor in them and were pretty good for low-light photography work. So if this new MX sensor is basically in the 500 to 800 ASA range as a base, it's not a big change. However, you will get cleaner results once you start going above 800 ASA with the new sensor compared to the F35 sensor. So it's not that you are getting shots that you couldn't get before, it's just that they are less noisy or grainy.
 
Tim Morten said:
David -

Can you recommend any good lighting workshops in the LA area? Alternately, can I suggest a "David Mullen Shows the Newbs Who's Their Daddy Day" at Red Studios Hollywood? :)

Thanks,
Tim
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The only ones I recall are the IATSE Local 600 lighting workshops, though I can't remember any recently.

If I have the time, I'd be happy to do a small lighting workshop if someone had a small stage with some lights & power. Nothing fancy though, I'd just teach some basics.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
The only ones I recall are the IATSE Local 600 lighting workshops, though I can't remember any recently.

If I have the time, I'd be happy to do a small lighting workshop if someone had a small stage with some lights & power. Nothing fancy though, I'd just teach some basics.
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Would you travel if expenses were covered? I'd love to coordinate a little workshop up here in Portland, Oregon. I think I know a studio here in town that might be up for hosting. :)
 
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