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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

That doesn't make any sense. RED initially came out with a camera at an absurdly low price and got owner ops out the gate. Made digital cinema accessible.

But if you got money to blow, then why not buy two Monstros and a couple Alexa LFs while you're at it. Cover all your bases.
 
David J. Buchanan said:
That doesn't make any sense. RED initially came out with a camera at an absurdly low price and got owner ops out the gate. Made digital cinema accessible.

But if you got money to blow, then why not buy two Monstros and a couple Alexa LFs while you're at it. Cover all your bases.
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Because You can wash more money with wat's more expensive, make more profit, that's why.
 
Šabović Adis;1784974 said:
Because You can wash more money with wat's more expensive, make more profit, that's why.
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Which is why RED is now making prosumer cameras... and cell phones... Nah, dude. Not all businesses function like that.
 
David J. Buchanan said:
Which is why RED is now making prosumer cameras... and cell phones...Nah, dude. Not all businesses function like that.
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Because RED had better prices than ARRI, that what You're saying? Better for whom?
RED's cheaper and that's the problem - no one likes cheap...except for the ones that do, and they don't mean business, if You know what I mean.
 
Arri is very much aming for the rental market, just as they always have. Red is trying to be disruptive by sticking cameras in the hands of filmmakers, just as they always have.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Arri is very much aming for the rental market, just as they always have. Red is trying to be disruptive by sticking cameras in the hands of filmmakers, just as they always have.
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Not really working in terms of price. The prime camera, the Epic MX and Dragon was affordable for most and the Red One had a $17500 pricetag when it came out. Those were the top of the line cameras. Top of the line now is closer to $100 000 with all the side gear. The Monstro is a rental camera for most, just like Arri. The Weapon 6K MG which had a closer price tag to the Epic Dragon is not available and the Epic-W has a resolution many still can't handle in their post workflow (independent filmmakers). I know just as many filmmakers who owns Alexas, Amiras and Alexa minis as I do people who owns a Red. But at this moment, the top of the line is nowhere near the democratising price tag of what "top of the line" meant a few years ago.

The Monstro competes with the Arri in rentals and it will probably not be used as much as the LF.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Not really working in terms of price. The prime camera, the Epic MX and Dragon was affordable for most and the Red One had a $17500 pricetag when it came out. Those were the top of the line cameras. Top of the line now is closer to $100 000 with all the side gear. The Monstro is a rental camera for most, just like Arri. The Weapon 6K MG which had a closer price tag to the Epic Dragon is not available and the Epic-W has a resolution many still can't handle in their post workflow (independent filmmakers). I know just as many filmmakers who owns Alexas, Amiras and Alexa minis as I do people who owns a Red. But at this moment, the top of the line is nowhere near the democratising price tag of what "top of the line" meant a few years ago.

The Monstro competes with the Arri in rentals and it will probably not be used as much as the LF.
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I'd say the LF competes more with the Panavision DXL 2 than it does with the regular Monstro, as that camera, aside from a unique color science is also offering a proper form factor and great ergonomics, much better than even a fully rigged Monstro.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Not really working in terms of price. The prime camera, the Epic MX and Dragon was affordable for most and the Red One had a $17500 pricetag when it came out. Those were the top of the line cameras. Top of the line now is closer to $100 000 with all the side gear. The Monstro is a rental camera for most, just like Arri. The Weapon 6K MG which had a closer price tag to the Epic Dragon is not available and the Epic-W has a resolution many still can't handle in their post workflow (independent filmmakers). I know just as many filmmakers who owns Alexas, Amiras and Alexa minis as I do people who owns a Red. But at this moment, the top of the line is nowhere near the democratising price tag of what "top of the line" meant a few years ago.

The Monstro competes with the Arri in rentals and it will probably not be used as much as the LF.
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The line has been extended. from raven to monstro. Sure monstro cost a lot. But it still a camera you can bring as carry on, a LF will be more difficult. You also need quite a different tripod for your LF and every other accessory kind of need to be scaled accordingly. Doing anything with that camera alone will be quite a task so you kind of need the AC´s and camera truck to go with it. It simply a dedicated film camera. Monstro you actually shoot extremly good stills with and it fits in a backpack. So as I see it monstro makes sense to own even if you dont have your own fisher dolly and techno crane. LF, not so much.

We work with monstro material all the time, I use a 3 year old laptop and a trashcan to do so. I dont see the drawback of 8k. I can shoot8k FF 15:1 compression, To me it still looks better than any previous red cameras and alexas. Then we got proxies in camera, on alexa you need to render proxies, and the raw is not 15:1.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Not really working in terms of price. The prime camera, the Epic MX and Dragon was affordable for most and the Red One had a $17500 pricetag when it came out. Those were the top of the line cameras. Top of the line now is closer to $100 000 with all the side gear. The Monstro is a rental camera for most, just like Arri.
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Not any more. There are two Monstro - basically brand new - advertised for 67K on reduser if you are interested. I am sure they will even go for 65K.

Technology is moving too fast. It does not make sense to own such expensive camera. Not Monstro, not Alexa LF. Unless you shoot big $ projects on a regular basis.
Better wait and buy second hand.
 
Aris_Gavriilidis said:
I'd say the LF competes more with the Panavision DXL 2 than it does with the regular Monstro, as that camera, aside from a unique color science is also offering a proper form factor and great ergonomics, much better than even a fully rigged Monstro.
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It also competes in the same market (rental-centric studio features and TV).
 
Thai Christen said:
Not any more. There are two Monstro - basically brand new - advertised for 67K on reduser if you are interested. I am sure they will even go for 65K.

Technology is moving too fast. It does not make sense to own such expensive camera. Not Monstro, not Alexa LF. Unless you shoot big $ projects on a regular basis.
Better wait and buy second hand.
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Lot of people paid I think 40k for their weapon dragon and put a 10k deposit for VV. Then they got to have a helium loaner sensor until they got their Monstro sensor. So now they are possibly selling that for 65k USD.

Not such a bad deal if you ask me.


And As I remember going from epic M to Dragon was 10k (dont remember what the M actually cost so somebody put the right number) Then from M dragon to weapon was I think 17k USD and weapon via helium to Monstro was 10K USD... So with a bit of luck you could have bought a M 2011 and sold your Monstro today and get pretty much all your money back and have 7 years of latest camera bodies... Nuts if you think of it.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Lot of people paid I think 40k for their weapon dragon and put a 10k deposit for VV. Then they got to have a helium loaner sensor until they got their Monstro sensor. So now they are possibly selling that for 65k USD.

Not such a bad deal if you ask me.
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This is why I think price of Monstro is too high if you buy off the shelf.


Björn Benckert said:
And As I remember going from epic M to Dragon was 10k (dont remember what the M actually cost so somebody put the right number) Then from M dragon to weapon was I think 17k USD and weapon via helium to Monstro was 10K USD... So with a bit of luck you could have bought a M 2011 and sold your Monstro today and get pretty much all your money back and have 7 years of latest camera bodies... Nuts if you think of it.
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If you look from that perspective, then yes.
But at the end of the day, dollars are dollars. Unless you pay everything in cash (which I don't think everyone does), you have to take loans from the bank and keep paying and paying. Nothing wrong with that. But from an investment standpoint, a camera that pays off quick and give you profit for many years before you upgrade to the next level is always a better choice.
 
For the sake of discussion, let's stipulate the ALF is aimed at folks shooting for Netflix, et al who don't allow uprezzing (plus features that aren't going A65) and prefer ARRI to RED. Let's further stipulate that all digital cinema manufacturers are in serial R&D on sensor tech. IF ARRI had a newer chip that was ready for prime time, I doubt they'd have used bonded ALEV3 sensors in the LF. That's not a criticism, waiting until they have fully vetted a new sensor - and rental houses have paid off the last body - is a solid approach.

I dig the larger format look of FF/VV. Love it. That said, the DOF is significantly shallower at the same stop, so, how do you avoid tons of buzzed takes when working at the speed typically required for TV production? Order enough lighting to get a 4/5.6 split vs the 2.8/4 split common for S35 format? Wouldn't Monstro have the same issues? It would if you used the whole sensor, but what if you windowed down to 6K? You still have enough oversampling to actually resolve UHD/4K, you can use S35 lenses and light for 2.8/4 split again - without putting your focus puller on the ragged edge.

IMHO, if larger formats become popular for narrative work, several things seem likely:

1) new lens sets will need to cover at least a 45mm image circle (hardly Nostradamus, since it's already happening ;-)

2) lighting fixtures with 94+ CRI and more lumens per watt/dollar to get to a "working" stop without breaking the budget

3) focussing topologies that effectively integrate auto tracking and precise manual override will find a market

It will be interesting to see what the release of the LF means in terms of ARRI's roadmap. Do they delay the release of the next sensor? Offer it in the A65 body rental only for a year or two? Release it as soon as it's ready and make LF buyers (mostly rental houses of course) hate them the way Sony's rapid F23>F35>F65 release schedule did? Would they perhaps take a page out of RED's playbook and offer trade in/upgrade relief?

Cheers - #19
 
I think that's a myth/misunderstanding -- larger sensors actually have a perceptibly deeper DOF plane (at same focal length, same stop)... It's that you typically have to compensate FOV with a longer lens, which is where the shallowness comes from. Or at least that's what DOF calculators say; the in-focus plane is quite a bit larger (I think it's 1.6x deeper... or rather, the same % difference as the sensor sizes you're comparing).

Also getting another take costs no money and takes no reload time; it's not like film any more where you're constantly running against the cost. Plus storage is *cheeeeeeap* and botched takes can be deleted. I dunno, more difficult focus will probably be a non-issue in the real-world (granted it'll be harder on ACs, but autofocus is getting really good... plus 4k 42" reference monitors to pull focus from probably makes it substantially easier than pre-HD days.)
 
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Regarding focusing on Monstro. Sure difficult if you use as fast lenses as you used to on smaller formats. But most dont shot thier masterprimes wide open at all times. They stop down a bit to get a pleasing look. When you swap to monstro I think you will find that you want to stop down to get about the same amount dof for most shots to get a pleasing look. Kind of keep your main object sharp and leave the rest in focus, Just beacouse you get a monstro does not. usually mean you want people with blurry noses and ears and only eyes in focus.

As monstro has better range in the low end its not so that you need more light to be able to stop it down to compensate for the decrease of DOF. The extra range will cover that.
 
Mike P. said:
Also getting another take costs no money and takes no reload time; it's not like film any more where you're constantly running against the cost.
Plus storage is *cheeeeeeap* and botched takes can be deleted.
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It still drains the actors and the crew, looses time for other shots and burdens the data management and editing.
No one gets to delete anything on a serious shoot. Botched takes are marked and kept.

Mike P. said:
I dunno, more difficult focus will probably be a non-issue in the real-world (granted it'll be harder on ACs, but autofocus is getting really good... plus 4k 42" reference monitors to pull focus from probably makes it substantially easier than pre-HD days.)
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No one pulls focus from 42 inch monitors. In many cases focus pullers don't even look at the monitor at all during a take and look at the scene and watch the distances. Autofocus is useless for those types of shoots.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
It still drains the actors and the crew, looses time for other shots and burdens the data management and editing.
No one gets to delete anything on a serious shoot. Botched takes are marked and kept.



No one pulls focus from 42 inch monitors. In many cases focus pullers don't even look at the monitor at all during a take and look at the scene and watch the distances. Autofocus is useless for those types of shoots.
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My observations from the past few years are that more and more focus pullers are using monitors, especially with HD and wireless focus systems. I have to say though, I've been blown away by those who have mastered the art of focus pulling. Their keen sense of distance, the ability to anticipate variations, exceptional concentration. I drool with envy when I see the great ones pulling off difficult shots.
 
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