ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Sabovic Adis]

(...)
That shit is as true as you believed yourself to be a JEM shredding, metal god Steve Vai himself would've been proud of back when you took that picture.

Boooo, don't get me started...I'll show You a metal God:

:rofl:

 

[Brian Boyer]

Boooo, don't get me started...I'll show You a metal God:

:rofl:

Let me try that again. JEM shredding, metal god that Steve Vai (because of the JEM) himself would be proud of. I was referring to you as the god, not him.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Luckily you are of the mindset of understanding other sides to the symbolism.

Vanitas - Pieter Claesz, 1630.

Phil,

love your art digging! In baroque times the Dutch were big in painting great pictures with tons of symbolism and story telling. We all love the Dutch painters for their ground-breaking work regarding light and FOV. We all copy/paste today Vermeer's and Rembrandt's lighting techniques and compositions. However, Vanitas means vanity obviously - no deeper Latin knowledge required. Not the best omen/meaning for a brand sign of a company, is it?. Perhaps I'm doing RED wrong but since their top-tier camera is called 'Weapon', the childish metal 'Spider', the infamous NAB 'horror movie scene' a few years ago I'm pretty sceptical with the marketing department's artistic sense.

BUT, my 'Epic Dragon' does a great job for quite a few years now and I'm not going to trade it for anything else. Perhaps it's the friendly fairytale name?

Hans

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Late me try that again. JEM shredding, metal god that Steve Vai (because of the JEM) himself would be proud of. I was referring to you as the god, not him.

I ain't no god, Dimebag is...rogar-Smoke(DBG):

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Arri Alexa LF 2.39:1 Full width spherical widescreen 4448 x 1856, 36.70 x 15.31 mm, up to 150 fps

whats the max framerate on VV with this width of sensor? its almost equal to 7.5K WS

 

[Phil Holland]

whats the max framerate on VV with this width of sensor? its almost equal to 7.5K WS

Use my tools, I made the for you.

http://phfx.com/tools/REDFormatKey/REDFormatKey.cgi?camera=REDWeapon8KVVMonstro&format=WS

8K WS = 75 fps, larger than Alexa LF 2.39:1
7.5K WS = 80 fps, larger than Alexa LF 2.39:1
7K WS = 85 fps, slightly smaller than Alexa LF 2.39:1

 

[Björn Benckert]

Use my tools, I made the for you.

http://phfx.com/tools/REDFormatKey/REDFormatKey.cgi?camera=REDWeapon8KVVMonstro&format=WS

8K WS = 75 fps, larger than Alexa LF 2.39:1
7.5K WS = 80 fps, larger than Alexa LF 2.39:1
7K WS = 85 fps, slightly smaller than Alexa LF 2.39:1

Also 8k WS to me feels quite more appealing then the LF 1.43 aspect ratio.


Bigger and wider sensor, more resolution, higher frame rate, wider DR, more light sensitivity, smaller lighter camera body with better modularity, more lens mount options, HDRx etc. Then also will be interesting to see the redraw times for the LF, I assume its twice the alexa redraw.

Did I mention I´m quite happy with my monstro.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

...more lens mount options

Btw: Have Red added LDS support on the new lens mount?

 

[Michael Lindsay]

We are also very happy with it Red cameras but the LF's height will be amazing for Vantages large format anamorphic lenses and other interesting imaging options... I want as many interesting options out there and as much as I like the idea 'my stuff' is the best I actually love cinema far more and want as many different options out there for my community.... as long as Red is economically viable and are able to keep innovating that is ok with me I really don't need them to 'win'... and we as filmmakers need companies like ARRI to do well too!

My early post in this thread was about the implications of the new mount and the lenses (potentially new creative options for Red users and for the broader community)... but is seems nobody is interested :-(

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Btw: Have Red added LDS support on the new lens mount?

On PL no that never happened... the new LDS 2 system is a lot easier to share I believe and hopefully It will come...

I had a multiple confirmations from senior ARRI guys that they are not looking to make any money out of the new mount... so let's hope Red makes an option ASAP... I would love to see LDS 2 but at least let's hope for a dumb mount very soon.. smart we would need Red to do but dumb could be from multiple shops...

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Haha even Zeiss uses Cooke -i not LDS on their lenses because of the licensing fees that ARRI charges for it. Nothing will happen with LDS as long as it is a paid license. There are free options and they always win. What's wrong with Cooke-i -anyway?

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Haha even Zeiss uses Cooke -i not LDS on their lenses because of the licensing fees that ARRI charges for it. Nothing will happen with LDS as long as it is a paid license. There are free options and they always win. What's wrong with Cooke-i -anyway?

As long as there are Master Primes and Ultra Primes with LDS, it's still quite relevant...

 

[Brian Merlen]

Hey Phil what about nyquist limit and the fact the arri LF doesn't resolve a 4K image after debayering? You ever heard of that argument: the debayering process vs resolution and resolved lines?

Relevance is an interesting word, and Arri has been around to generate that brand and loyalty for many decades. I used to be closer to that fire too.

But if you're looking at things like the top 10 grossing feature films of 2017 you'll find RED, Arri, and Kodak all in there (and animation too!). Each medium sometimes used exclusively, often on those big shoots however they are using multiple capture mediums. I personally can't read into to much of what "TV" is using as it's so very much workflow based rather than even aesthetics or creative choices for the vast majority of that. Occasionally discerning creators will be doing something specific, new, or different and I think that's why we've seen so much interest whatever is happening in digital streaming over say standard broadcast because the workflows are new or potentially different than something you're pushing out every 5-15 days per episode. Hell, the vast majority of TV outside of narrative aren't these cameras at all. The ProRes workflow in particular has been highly appealing over the years and that's what's much more interesting from a cost, time, value, and data perspective in the narrative TV world. Even if you have the option to shoot something like ARRIRAW or REDCODE RAW and don't, it always fascinates me as to why, which is mostly budget or deadline related.

From a general perspective, many union and ASC cinematographers don't like to have any sort of brand favoritism, though most have some sort of preferred workflow. Deakins is a great example as he's famously said that he'd shoot on a cell phone if asked to, but he's certainly an Arri guy and those are for his own reasons which run rather deep. And whatever your POV or preference that's not to judge him (or anybody) by, but rather look at his work and see if you like it. *Spoiler, he's one of my favorite DPs and it has nothing to do with what he's shooting with, but more of how he's shooting with the added plus of him giving me solid advice a few times over the years.

Any DP worth their salt will choose the right tool to get the job done. You'll find the ecosystem today to be broad, vast, and well accepted in most places for many workflows.

I think if you look closer, much closer, the fact that RED started about 10-12 years ago and has made it's way onto some of the biggest productions being made you can clearly see the brand, camera system, and image quality is well respected. In fact more so in US driven narrative than Canon, Panasonic, and Sony even. Think about what it's taken to be part of the conversation and a respected option in the top 3 motion picture mediums and for a while now.

And just a side note, this is why much of my POV on different systems come down to mostly technical and occasionally creative subjects. For instance right now I'm involved in a few email chains because RED resolves a 4K+ image in Super 35mm and the Alexa LF does not and the people I'm talking with have several million dollars in glass that they are wondering about and how to proceed into the future. They also have investments primarily in RED and Arri if you're curious with a few other cameras in there.

Grabbing lunch. Shooting later.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

As long as there are Master Primes and Ultra Primes with LDS, it's still quite relevant...

I don't know- in the Alexas I looked at the mount connector was not plugged in. Apparently even ARRI does not think it's important...

 

[M Most]

Hey Phil what about nyquist limit and the fact the arri LF doesn't resolve a 4K image after debayering? You ever heard of that argument: the debayering process vs resolution and resolved lines?

Brian, who are you trying to convince? Arri is a highly respected engineering company that has dominated the high end of production since the day the Alexa arrived. They do their homework, those who use their cameras generally love them, and their images are considered the reference standard by virtually all of the most respected cinematographers. On the Red side, well, this is RedUser. By definition about 90% or more of the people here consider Red to have products that are superior to everything else. So you're not going to sway the minds of either side regardless of what arguments you come up with. There are no "gotchas" in this conversation. People like what they like. And if those they are doing work for accept what they are creating, there is no issue.

Numbers only mean something when they're either overwhelming or part of a required spec. When it comes to theoretical vs. actual images, the actual images are the only criteria.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hey Phil what about nyquist limit and the fact the arri LF doesn't resolve a 4K image after debayering? You ever heard of that argument: the debayering process vs resolution and resolved lines?

Nope, never heard of it. *sarcasm*

This is a simple thing, a very simple thing. Most streaming and broadcast services require 4K capture to be UHD or DCI 4K (3840x2160 or 4096x2160 respectively). While yes, "ideally" you want to have some oversampling to "hit" proper 4K, there's more variables at play into each camera system's way of handling image data such as the optical path or image processing that would be an additional level of chaos to keep track of, so most entities are super focused more on the total pixel count to hit a minimum of UHD or DCI 4K. As Mike points out, it's not all about the numbers. Though, what reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally should be noted is that upscaling is a no go and honestly trying to push that to professionals was about as questionable as feeding kids cardboard and telling them it was cereal.

That said, I personally work at a minimum of 5K for a 4K finish and don't do much in the sense of image extraction typically. But for those that do, 6K-8K has become normal fair. Since I'm on 8K bodies, I'm mostly shooting 6.5K through 8K for the last two years and am mostly at 8K.

All you truly need to understand regarding the Alexa LF is:
- Alexa SXT/Mini/Amira/etc.... = 3.4K S35, not compliant with 4K capture guidelines (purchasable)
- Alexa LF = 4.4/4.5K, compliant with most current and future 4K capture guidelines (purchasable)
- Alexa 65 = 5K & 6.5K, compliant with most current and future 4K capture guidelines (rental only via Arri Rental)

If Arri made this camera a 5K sensor for instance, it would actually destroy a fair bit of the market for the Alexa 65 that rents it purely for the 5K mode and they don't want to compete with themselves.

So to that end yes, it's not the "best" you can do to derive a nice 4K debayered image (especially if you need to reframe or crop for any reason), but it's enough to put Arri back into the game to be used in places like Netflix, Amazon, and even upcoming narrative broadcast standards.

From my RED owner perspective in terms of camera function, I do take note that this has a 4K monitoring option and integrated wireless video, which RED has shown on Xenomorph, Bayhem, Ranger, and DXL bodies. For general DSMC2 bodies we currently have no 4K out solution and wireless video built in functionality at the moment will come in the form of a Teradek Module (not a bad thing as you can still remove it if you need to make the camera slightly smaller). And even bigger side note, we tested some wireless 4K video transceivers a bit over a year ago. There was a 1.5 second delay on the early ones, but this will be locked down shortly and eventually we'll have wireless 4K streams out.

What's being discussed "elsewhere" is how this plays into an ecosystem of S35, FF35, and VV main capture formats with consideration of current and future glass investments, this is mostly rental house discussion and those involved in that. If you're real curious about some of the other chatter I'm having off forum, I'm also experiencing something real interesting in regards to many DPs not being familiar with any other formats whatsoever and for the first time "discovering" above S35 filming. For instance, many DPs didn't know S35 to VV expanders exist or know anything about their pros and cons, lens tests, lens options, etc... It's actually fascinating to see where and how this particular announcement landed even on people who have been in the industry for a few decades.

Makes me think I should have horded all this VV glass testing for myself and reaped the profits, instead of sharing it with the world Kidding, maybe not kidding..... Kidding.

 

[Gaston Fazio]

Makes me think I should have horded all this VV glass testing for myself and reaped the profits, instead of sharing it with the world Kidding, maybe not kidding..... Kidding.

Pretty please????? :embarassed:
As a rental house here in Miami, that info would be very usefull.
We ordered 2 x LF's and now thinking about glass. Ordered a set of Cooke S7's last year... That is done (waiting for delivery).
We also already have in house Sigmas FF zooms, Xeen's pimes, Zeiss cz 70-200mm.

I'm not asking to share your research, but maybe can you tell some other brand and models to look into?? CP.3 maybe???

Thanks in advance and cheers!!

G

 

[Phil Holland]

Pretty please????? :embarassed:
As a rental house here in Miami, that info would be very usefull.
We ordered 2 x LF's and now thinking about glass. Ordered a set of Cooke S7's last year... That is done (waiting for delivery).
We also already have in house Sigmas FF zooms, Xeen's pimes, Zeiss cz 70-200mm.

I'm not asking to share your research, but maybe can you tell some other brand and models to look into?? CP.3 maybe???

Thanks in advance and cheers!!

G

There's more glass coming first and foremost. Outside of what you mentioned check out those Tokinas. They are actually designed for a VV image circle and not just S35. In fact the Thalias, Cooke S7s, and Tokinas are the only modern cinema glass designed for the VV or beyond image circle. The Sigma Cine's and Zeiss CP.3s are both good options. Need to sort of unlock if you want lighter weight or higher speed glass there, and then there's some character conversations to be had.

I really like the CZs, just wish they were designed with a more image circle. The 28-80 T2.9 is pretty much the workhorse midrange zoom for FF35/VV in my mind. You can shoot entire films with that little bad boy. I'd kill for it to be a hair wider and longer and possibly a closer focus distance, but it's the only zoom I regularly use on the VV as of now. You'll find the 70-200mm to be real useful too, the 15-30 is very wide on the 15mm side of things, ultra-wide. Much of what many will need exists in the 25-135mm range for most productions. 15/18-200mm if you are looking to extend beyond that typically.

 

[jordan levy]

wow, this thread has went bonkers, but hopefully it's back on track. i have a question that might seem silly, but now that there is an alexa that meets 4k guidelines, if you did happen to shoot on lets say an amira, did in camera upscale to UHD, edited, colored, onlined, then delivering. could anyone actually tell if it was shot on the LF or Amira? I mean spec wise, cant you now just say if netflix was buying it, yes, we shot on the alexa 4k.
reason im asking is when i did just that, and netflix was acquiring my show, which we thought was going to comedy central so we shot on amiras. netflix was contacting me to find out what our specs were and were trying to see if there was a work around for them to make into 4k. i explained the issue and they seemed really not that knowledgable about it.

so, once post is done, is there anyway to really tell by the finished project?

 

[Phil Holland]

wow, this thread has went bonkers, but hopefully it's back on track. i have a question that might seem silly, but now that there is an alexa that meets 4k guidelines, if you did happen to shoot on lets say an amira, did in camera upscale to UHD, edited, colored, onlined, then delivering. could anyone actually tell if it was shot on the LF or Amira? I mean spec wise, cant you now just say if netflix was buying it, yes, we shot on the alexa 4k.
reason im asking is when i did just that, and netflix was acquiring my show, which we thought was going to comedy central so we shot on amiras. netflix was contacting me to find out what our specs were and were trying to see if there was a work around for them to make into 4k. i explained the issue and they seemed really not that knowledgable about it.

so, once post is done, is there anyway to really tell by the finished project?

With that client in particular, Netflix, there's a big difference between what they are acquiring and what they are producing. Acquisitions they are a bit more flexible, especially since so much of their library isn't 4K. In whatever situation I would suggest you be honest if you want to keep building that relationship.

Remember, Netflix has tiers that they provide to consumers and people pay a premium for UHD 4K content. On their produced content they are rather firm to get the most out of their dollar to both finish in 4K and provide that to their broadest customer base with the best possible viewing experience.