Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Michael Bravin]

Mark my words... 1080P acquisition is NOT future-proof.

Jim

Jim

Just curious as to who said 1080P is future proof?
Also curious, your thoughts on the timeline for "future proof"?

 

[Jannard]

Jim

Just curious as to who said 1080P is future proof?
Also curious, your thoughts on the timeline for "future proof"?

The timeline for future-proof started several years ago. Anything shot on 1080P cannot be re-released in 4K. The studios are realizing that now. That includes TV shows.

BTW... the amount of misinformation you have spread about RED the past few days is extremely disappointing.

Jim

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Obviously ARRI want to CASH with 1080p until they would be ready for 4K+.

At the last moment thy did everything to even higher "value" that 1080P state of their technology that's actually on ALEXA's birth already obsolete.

We should not forget all those steps like a Sony SxS card, Apple ProRes 4444 onboard recording and now the last is ARRI/Fujinon Zoom lenses...

ARRI want desperately to deliver those Alexa images on every broadcast set.

 

[Brook Willard]

I'm pretty bummed that there's no inboard RAW recording on the camera... that hurts a little. Still excited, just bummed it doesn't have the feature I was hoping for.

ProRes4444 is a way cool option for 1080. As far as HD options go, that's a nice concept.

Still can't wait to play with it!!!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

I agree that these FCP rumors need to be taken w/ a HUGE grain of salt. They read like they are based on one internet post from about a month ago.

Totally agree. All I heard was that they were consolidating the team into one office, and let go a lot of software testers in Austin who didn't want to relocate... They've probably hired replacements.

FCP is stagnant and hasn't any significant improvements in a while.
I've heard rumors about this rewrite for two years and no actual signs of improvement. Not much optimism for FCP actually getting better.
I use FCP but something better will come along soon.

Two years is nothing... At my company we have about 35 developers working on a large codebase (a bit bigger than what I'd expect Final Cut Pro to be like), and it was in December last year that we finished rewriting the last of the parts written in Visual Basic, the oldest of which were about eight years old. We expect to have the last of the code written with COM removed in the next 18 months, some of which is almost 12 to 15 years old.

Apple probably has at least twice the number of developers, but since Carbon is so deeply ingrained in Final Cut, it's not going to be easy to remove...

 

[Tom Lowe]

Jim

Just curious as to who said 1080P is future proof?

Well Arri must think 1080p is future proof if you are rolling out your next-gen camera at 3.5K RAW, which is essentially a 1080p/2K finish camera. Plus you are boasting about 1080p ProRes. Surely you do not think 3.5K RAW makes a clean 4K RGB finish? To me, either you choose 4K RGB as "future proof" or you choose 1080p. Which is it? I don't think you can really split the pie and say "3K" is the future. Or "2.6K." To me, it's gotta be 1080p or 4K at this point. Or 3D. Or 4K 3D.

1080 is a dying breed right now. Once people get a look at 5K RAW downsampled and projected at 4K, it's a game changer. Nevermind 6K full-frame downsampled to 4K RGB.... once people see that, it's game over.

Most of us here believe that 4K is the future. Why do you think AMC and Cinemark theaters are installing thousands of 4K projectors?

Also curious, your thoughts on the timeline for "future proof"?

As soon as Epic 5.1K RAW hits the streets? :sifone:

 

[Michael Bravin]

I'm pretty bummed that there's no inboard RAW recording on the camera... that hurts a little. Still excited, just bummed it doesn't have the feature I was hoping for.

ProRes4444 is a way cool option for 1080. As far as HD options go, that's a nice concept.

Still can't wait to play with it!!!

Brook

Pro Res supports 2K.
Take a look at the Codex or OB-1 and you get an idea of the additional size and weight necessary to accomplish internal RAW recording.

The Codex and OB1 fits nicely on top and record RAW via T-Link, the SxS cards can then act as a proxy.

Pretty straight forward.

 

[Mike Gross]

Well Arri must think 1080p is future proof if you are rolling out your next-gen camera at 3.5K RAW, which is essentially a 1080p/2K finish camera. Plus you are boasting about 1080p ProRes. Surely you do not think 3.5K RAW makes a clean 4K RGB finish? To me, either you choose 4K RGB as "future proof" or you choose 1080p. Which is it? I don't think you can really split the pie and say "3K" is the future. Or "2.6K." To me, it's gotta be 1080p or 4K at this point. Or 3D. Or 4K 3D.

1080 is a dying breed right now. Once people get a look at 5K RAW downsampled and projected at 4K, it's a game changer. Nevermind 6K full-frame downsampled to 4K RGB....

Most of us here believe that 4K is the future. Why do you think AMC and Cinemark theaters are installing thousands of 4K projectors?



As soon as Epic 5.1K RAW hits the streets? :sifone:

I'm with you Tom.
As an industry, this HD is good enough crap is sad.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Brook

Pro Res supports 2K.
Take a look at the Codex or OB-1 and you get an idea of the additional size and weight necessary to accomplish internal RAW recording.

The Codex and OB1 fits nicely on top and record RAW via T-Link, the SxS cards can then act as a proxy.

Pretty straight forward.

so arri raw + pro res dailies at the same time, right?


a codex is pretty expensive. the whole package crosses easily 100k.

man, its a computer, in 30 months new sensors will hit the street with larger DR. So dou you have a sensor upgrade program

 

[Michael Bravin]

so arri raw + pro res dailies at the same time, right?

Correct

 

[Lee Saxon]

I forget where I read this (don't have the precise wording correct, therefore):

"Look at an old episode of Welcome Back Kotter? Looks like crap, doesn't it? Because it was shot on tape. Now look at a projection of Gone With the Wind. Twice as old, and still looks great. Shot on film."

Good luck with 1080p.

 

[Mike Gross]

Brook

Pro Res supports 2K.
Take a look at the Codex or OB-1 and you get an idea of the additional size and weight necessary to accomplish internal RAW recording.

Aaton looks like they're doing it in a very small package.
Epic also shows lossless compression to an SSD at 5k.
For crissakes Epic looks like it's smaller than half an Alexa.

Forgive my frustration but I'm an Arri fan that's not to happy about Alexa.
It could have been the killer camera and it's disappointingly less than the Aaton or Epic.

 

[andrewhake]

Jim

Just curious as to who said 1080P is future proof?
Also curious, your thoughts on the timeline for "future proof"?

I actually referred to upgradeable storage modules and electronics as being good for the future. The timeline seems pretty darn clear to me, if major theaters are indeed beginning a move to 4k projectors that is the benchmark isn't it?

You would also probably be the person to answer the question as to why 4k was not the finishing size of choice for the Alexa? I think there is definitely a dramatic curve off on the resolution/perceived quality graph at some point, I don't see that curve beginning to flatten at 2K though.

Don't get me wrong, I find the camera to be quite exciting for many reasons, but it would make since for Digital Cinema to strive for the current resolution benchmarks of film. . .

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Jim

Also curious, your thoughts on the timeline for "future proof"?

I just watched the North by Northwest blu-ray on a massive plasma and it was absolutely STUNNING. I haven't seen official numbers but anecdotal evidence points to them moving a ton of copies. Now Mr. Hitchcock is not alive 51 years later to reap the profits but the format he chose allows his masterpiece to have competitive visual impact half a century later.

 

[Christopher Probst]

Michael, when the 4:3 sensor'd version of the Alexa comes out, will that unmask additional height of the same sensor, or is it a different chip? Additionally, what are the pixel specs for that.

Finally, with all of this debate about resolutions, when recording ArriRaw, has Arri determined the maximum effective resolution you can get out of the sensor with the optimal debayering possible?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

RED1 (my R1 is with M sensor) still beats ALEXA because it can deliver 1080P Apple ProRes 4444 (here is at wide screen 1920x800 sample)

and also can "archive" 4.5K original file for the future proof that actually a "poor girl" ALEXA can't!!!!

Candle flames shot the last night on RED-1-M with Leica Apo Summicron-M f/2.0 ASPH @ wide open f/2.0, ISO 320, 1/50 shutter, 5600K.

Download example 1920x800 Apple ProRes 4444 short file 1.1 sec, 40 MB >>>

Alexa with two SxS cards.

Alexa with two SxS cards.

Codex mini recorder for ARRI RAW costs about $60.000 and AJA KiPro ProRes 4222 recorder that works with RED costs about $3.500.

Again advantage RED1.

Btw, Alexa can't be compared with Epic because

that would be the same to compare for example

Apollo 8 and the latest Space Shuttle.

Sorry but no way.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Mark my words... 1080P acquisition is NOT future-proof. I'm disappointed in this aspect.

Yeah, don't get me wrong here. If I were given a choice between a camera that only shot 1080p ProRes 4444, and a camera that only shot 4K+ compressed raw at the same price, I'd take the latter, and it wouldn't be a hard choice. But there are some projects where the former would be really useful.

 

[CJ Roy]

RED1 (my R1 is with M sensor) still beats ALEXA because it can deliver 1080P Apple ProRes 4444 (here is at wide screen 1920x800 sample)

and also can "archive" 4.5K original file for the future proof that actually a "poor girl" ALEXA can't!!!!

While I would think that most would agree that 4k and beyond is going to be more future-proof, 1080/2k is still perfectly fine for anything outside of theaters. There's still a lot of commercial and music video productions being cut in SD. A LOT.

The pro-res offline/online offers a pretty simple and attractive workflow for them. We asked for a 1080 output from RED years ago. Looks like Epic will have that option. For a lot of productions, if not most, 1080 is all they need. They're really not giving a shit about the future, all they care is how much it costs right now. Maybe for some FX shots they'll shoot at higher resolutions, but the majority probably won't.

Straight to Pro-Res (which they're used to anyway) off of camera? Well that solves a lot of head scratching in post. It makes it simple, and post for the Red is quite simply anything but simple.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Apple probably has at least twice the number of developers, but since Carbon is so deeply ingrained in Final Cut, it's not going to be easy to remove...

Yeah, don't forget that in the process of moving away from Carbon, Apple has to basically rewrite QuickTime as well. We've seen some of that go public with the QuickTime X architecture in Snow Leopard, but the current public version of QuickTime X still isn't up to supporting a Cocoa Final Cut, so we know that was still an ongoing project as of Snow Leopard's release date (August).

Either way... reading the tea leaves at Apple is a tricky business. It's not super clear that anything besides controlled leaks as gotten out of there in years. You're almost better off reasoning about what it would make sense for Apple to do based on public information than believing rumors about what Apple supposedly is doing.

 

[Deanan]

We've seen some of that go public with the QuickTime X architecture in Snow Leopard, but the current public version of QuickTime X still isn't up to supporting a Cocoa Final Cut, so we know that was still an ongoing project as of Snow Leopard's release date (August).

(not on topic...) Quicktime X as an API is missing a ton of features to make a usable professionally. We would love to move everything to 64bit Quicktime X encoding but don't expect it to happen anytime soon. There's no indication yet that Quicktime X is intended as a pro pathway. For now we have to use all the old quicktime api's. Crossing fingers but have realistic expectations... Apple shareholders only care about consumer marketshare.