Arguments for Dragon over Arri Mini?

[Demetri Zuev]

Can't see what You wrote there-too blurry.
Try again, and sharpen a bit!

Your jokes are hilarious! Keep them coming, I'll forward them to moderators team

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Your jokes are hilarious! Keep them coming, I'll forward them to moderators team

Don't think so.

 

[Gene Sung]

Well, I guess everyone has different tastes, think differently, or see differently. I shoot on Red because they make good cameras, and they're kind of cheap. But I watch all the shot-on-red movies I can find and I've never been in love with any of them regarding the image. But there are tons of movies that look gorgeous to my eyes shot on alexa.

I kind of thought the same way as I love the way Alexa looks. Generally, Red and Alexa does have a different look. When I watched 10 Cloverfield Lane, through the entire movie I thought it was Alexa because the image felt a bit weightier (not sure if that's the right word) and the colors had that Alexa vibe. Afterwards, I found out it was shot on Red. Also, Vinyl, the new TV show looks really nice to me and I found out it was shot on the Sony F55.

Obviously, with Alexa is the easiest to get that industry standard Alexa look, but with not very much more work I feel like you can get any of the top cameras to look fantastic.

While I dig the Alexa look, I feel the Alexa Mini is poorly designed. The need to hang bricks on rods because of the rear vent, the weird m3 screw threads to attach a plate just to attach additional rigging and no internal mics seems to go against the gimbal philosophy they're pushing as you have to rig a ton of S#!T to get it working. And it's super expensive.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

While I dig the Alexa look, I feel the Alexa Mini is poorly designed. The need to hang bricks on rods because of the rear vent, the weird m3 screw threads to attach a plate just to attach additional rigging and no internal mics seems to go against the gimbal philosophy they're pushing as you have to rig a ton of S#!T to get it working. And it's super expensive.

No doubt ARRI was rushing to the market with Mini, maybe they'll make the 2nd gen more ergonomical

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

This is a short film by a friend of mine, shot on actual film and usually when people talk "film" they have this look in mind, not Fincher film era features. And Alexa looks a lot like that, that is why it's so popular imo. To get RED to this kind of look take a lot of time due to various factors.

Nice looking videos. Huh, under dull lighting analog looks almost like Dragon with low-con filter or that special OLPF from KipperTie. I've seen similar looking videos shot on Alexa, too. Arri did good with the defaults, people love it for that (for lack of a better word) built-in "Film LUT" color profile. Not saying default DC/RG is inferior, but it's just OK in comparison to what you can squeeze from R3Ds in grading. Some folks like quick turnarounds and good built-in looks, getting a great looking default color/gamma profile that looks "filmic" is the key to success in those circles. Others get RAW meat and will spend time to cook something delicious, nothing wrong with that also. Surprisingly, I've seen a lot more well graded commercials, shorts and music videos shot on RED, than feature films. Even to this day.

 

[richiel]

Does anyone know where I can find any articles supporting the argument that netflix and other will not except any programs shot on any format less than 4k raw?

 

[Phil Holland]

Does anyone know where I can find any articles supporting the argument that netflix and other will not except any programs shot on any format less than 4k raw?

The official word is Netflix productions are 4K and 4K+ only. i.e. Netflix Originals

Netflix will buy content that is whatever resolution, especially older libraries of content that aren't 4K. If you have a compelling film, they may bite on it for sure.

At this point considering their 4K push, if starting a production today, it might be a wise idea to shoot for a 4K master as it provides added value towards your cause.

And that's just Netflix we're talking about. Many entities out there are going a very similar route.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The official word is Netflix productions are 4K and 4K+ only. i.e. Netflix Originals

Netflix will buy content that is whatever resolution, especially older libraries of content that aren't 4K. If you have a compelling film, they may bite on it for sure.

At this point considering their 4K push, if starting a production today, it might be a wise idea to shoot for a 4K master as it provides added value towards your cause.

And that's just Netflix we're talking about. Many entities out there are going a very similar route.

+1 This

There's no reason not to master everything you do today as 4K masters. Maybe if it's date specific and will never be used again, but for films and series etc. 4K should be the norm even though most channels still show 1080p only, because we aren't stuck in history and we will soon have 4K as the primary standard.

 

[Corey Robson]

Interesting thread, my 2 cents: We are using Arri over Weapons for our main cameras because of the following:

- No way to apply in camera peaking to a dc2/rg3 sdi signal with look around to focus puller and operator on one sdi and a clean dc2/rlf output with no look around to a 2nd video village sdi. Our focus pullers double up on peaking. #1 reason unquestionably.
- No 120fps in camera prores except in cf weapons. Not enough cf weapons (in Vancouver at least) to ease concerns about extra camera days and 2nd unit days. We need 6 bodies on short notice often.
- Alexa prores to sxs has been extremely reliable and Weapon hasn't been in the wild long enough to ease reliability concerns. In Vancouver Weapon needs to get a reputation of being a solid camera which can only happen with more time. Just reporting facts as I hear them.
- Poor sodium vapour color reproduction with standard Olpf compared to Alexa (too yellow.) We shoot a ton of night work. Not a deal breaker but hope this can be tweaked eventually.
- Day call crews are more familiar with Alexa than Weapon therefore less chance of human errors. Not blaming Red for this of course but a consideration nonetheless.

Non-issues for us:
- color matching skin tones
- low light sensitivity
- weight / form factor / accessory power output options
These 3 points are non issues based on what we have tested on my Weapons vs Alexas.

 

[Neil Dearman]

I own both because I was having clients asking for both, and I was tired of loosing jobs and telling clients NO I DONT HAVE THAT CAMERA (which is never fun to say to Peeps who keep hiring you) I have noticed when on set I had both my Dragons and Mini and when it comes to High speed shots they prefer the RED (Due to the High Frame Rates). Having both gives clients options which makes them happy which in turns gets you paid and happy returning clients!!!

 

[Kalechi Noel]

I own both because I was having clients asking for both, and I was tired of loosing jobs and telling clients NO I DONT HAVE THAT CAMERA (which is never fun to say to Peeps who keep hiring you) I have noticed when on set I had both my Dragons and Mini and when it comes to High speed shots they prefer the RED (Due to the High Frame Rates). Having both gives clients options which makes them happy which in turns gets you paid and happy returning clients!!!

Well @Neil....

I am happy you are able to afford BOTH a Dragon and a Mini.... Unfortunately , most of us can only afford a RED as an Arri is WAAAY out most out of our Budget... otherwise, we'd have them both too .... #HumbleBragging

 

[Marc Wielage]

Does anyone know where I can find any articles supporting the argument that netflix and other will not except any programs shot on any format less than 4k raw?

Yes, here's the link:

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/en-us/categories/202282037-SPECIFICATIONS-GUIDES

Page 4 of the Full Technical Specifications and Operations Manual says:

"Up‐rezzing of content is prohibited. SD sources cannot be used to create HD deliverables. 4K video must come from a true 4K source and maintain unity in 4K throughout the entire post*‐production pipeline."

Bear in mind this only counts for original Netflix content, so they're basically talking about TV shows and films specifically shot for Netflix. A theatrical motion picture or a network TV series can still shoot on anything (including film), and they'll air it in whatever they get. They're not going to turn down (say) any of the Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings films because they're all uprezzed from 2K.

But it's fair to say from here on, it's gotta be real 4K or better. What is less clear is if you have a (mostly) 4K production with a lot of 2K VFX that have been uprezzed... and that's basically every movie ever made at this point. Even a $250,000,000 movie like Batman vs. Superman or Captain America is going to have a large chunk of 2K uprezzed composites in it. No one cares as long as people want to see the content. But if you're producing a Netflix series, it's gotta be shot on a 4K camera.

What's interesting to me is that the document doesn't specify what 4K is acceptable or not. I don't know if this means I can buy a $395 GoPro 4K camera or shoot it on my iPhone in 4K and deliver a show or not. And it also omits whether something like the $2000 Blackmagic camera would meet their specs or not. Clearly, the Red Epic/Dragon/Weapon would be fine, along with Sony F55/F65, Panasonic Varicam 35, Alexa 65, and so on, but they won't take Alexa 3.2K uprezed content for new TV series.

I am happy you are able to afford BOTH a Dragon and a Mini.... Unfortunately , most of us can only afford a RED as an Arri is WAAAY out most out of our Budget... otherwise, we'd have them both too ....

You can always rent. 90% of the shows, commercials, and studio features shot in LA are done with all rental gear.

I think we're at the point now where there is no practical difference between high-end cameras, and that includes all the major players. To producers, the camera model is just a buzzword and a line-item on the budget. If they save $700 a day getting camera B instead of camera A, they might do it. I think the decision boils down to personal tastes and prejudices, not necessarily cold hard facts. And unfortunately, too often these days non-technical people are making these decisions and removing them from the DP, which I think is totally wrong.

 

[Stephen Williams]

To be simplistic:

RED is Kodak
Arri is Fuji

I disagree, Kodak was bland to be fixed in post, Fuji was beautiful with less dynamic range.

 

[M.Halsell]

Sensor Behavior

Sensor Behavior

One could easily make case that the Digital Intermediate or Post process marginalizes the discreet differences in sensor capture. No two film stocks ever had the same modulation properties and neither do competing camera sensors after tuning. The ADC process is certainly proprietary to each camera maker. The science simply says there will be inherent differences in quantization and non-linearity errors affecting the level of accuracy.

Measuring the output with color chips and step wedges only disclose a portion of the camera's behavior. Over/under exposure tests are practical, but hardly scientific. And these tests get challenged even more so under the boundary conditions of practical shooting.

A simple 1/3 stop is a significant difference in exposure, 1⁄6 stop although modest, each change will communicate differently to the human brain. How many shades of white are there? There is a narrow margin between what the brain will determine as a good or mediocre display of contrast & color. The Psychology of Color indicates there are subtle but distinct considerations to visual response. Color perception and emotional response have a symbiotic relationship.

The infinite conversation loop around which camera(s) is/are better? Perhaps the discussion or answer is not about the 80-90% of similarity, but the 10-20% of difference.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

One could easily make case that the Digital Intermediate or Post process marginalizes the discreet differences in sensor capture. No two film stocks ever had the same modulation properties and neither do competing camera sensors after tuning. The ADC process is certainly proprietary to each camera maker. The science simply says there will be inherent differences in quantization and non-linearity errors affecting the level of accuracy.

Measuring the output with color chips and step wedges only disclose a portion of the camera's behavior. Over/under exposure tests are practical, but hardly scientific. And these tests get challenged even more so under the boundary conditions of practical shooting.

A simple 1/3 stop is a significant difference in exposure, 1⁄6 stop although modest, each change will communicate differently to the human brain. How many shades of white are there? There is a narrow margin between what the brain will determine as a good or mediocre display of contrast & color. The Psychology of Color indicates there are subtle but distinct considerations to visual response. Color perception and emotional response have a symbiotic relationship.

The infinite conversation loop around which camera(s) is/are better? Perhaps the discussion or answer is not about the 80-90% of similarity, but the 10-20% of difference.

The conversation loop is continuing when taking into account... what is a skin tone? If someone made a high quality 3D LUT to exactly map over Dragon colors to Alexa colors, what would that mean? Is it "better" or just... Alexa? And do you actually see a difference?

 

[M.Halsell]

Dragon definitely meets Alexa better than EPIC in the color conversation, leaps and bounds better. But Dragon seems to have a bit more aggressive saturation curve than Alexa. Basically there is a biased color cast across the entire exposure scale. Fixable, but present. Mids to Highlights is where all of the sensitive color action happens. When you start mucking around in that area, you run the risk of upsetting paucity colors that provide natural, accurate and subtly textured color.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

So, in essence, RED's colours are off?!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Dragon definitely meets Alexa better than EPIC in the color conversation, leaps and bounds better. But Dragon seems to have a bit more aggressive saturation curve than Alexa. Basically there is a biased color cast across the entire exposure scale. Fixable, but present. Mids to Highlights is where all of the sensitive color action happens. When you start mucking around in that area, you run the risk of upsetting paucity colors that provide natural, accurate and subtly textured color.

Do you color grade the material or are you just marking on what the colors are as is? If you need colors to be a certain way from the get go, just create a starting point LUT to give you exactly that. I still don't understand why people talk about both of these sensors in this way when you easily could standardize your own start point. The colors are there and if you know how to color grade there's not much to worry about. I've seen Alexa being graded to shit as well. Mostly it depends on the accuracy of the colorist rather than either the camera or color science.

So, in essence, RED's colours are off?!

No, because Alexa isn't "standard", you can't say Reds colors are "off". Alexa may just be closer to film from the starting point, but if you want true color representation I'm fairly certain I read an article some time ago about the Dragon sensor replicating better how our eyes see color. So... what is off? Compared to 35mm or compared to your eyes?

 

[Oron Cohen]

Went through the all thread and didn't see anywhere the OP saying what he needs his camera for, to be honest unless he needs slow motion, I would go with Scarlet-W if going RED and invest all that money that is left into lenses and other gear (Oconnor tripod, Mattebox, wireless FF etc) that would last the life of 3 camera bodies or more.

Also have to say I somewhat agree that the two cameras do have different looks, but I wouldn't say one looks better then the other, it is in fact the same as film, sometimes you want the Kodak look, sometimes the Fuji. I really like the images coming from both RED and ARRI. And I do remember going to cinema many times and think I'm a film being shot on Fuji and it was actually Kodak and vice versa.

On a different note, I've recently been watching the second season of 'Better Call Saul' and honestly think it's the best looking TV series on TV right now, the images are beautiful, and without knowing I could never tell it was shot on RED or Alexa, all I could tell it looks amazing!

I also remember watching this short that was made by a friend of mine that was Oscar nominated, could you tell which camera? https://vimeo.com/48435290
When I spoke with my friend about it he was like: "for me it's all about how the image look, not about the camera" and that he just used the best tool he had for the job at that time with the limitations he had from the producers etc.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Of course not, Christopher! I was just checking what Halsell said. :biggrin:
As for colours, I compare against nature, not against film. And yes, RED comes closer to nature than film does.
Anybody saying the footage has to look like film (or ALEXA, for that matter), in my opinion, is just superstitious. :biggrin: