Arguments for Dragon over Arri Mini?

[Patrick Tresch]

To be simplistic:

RED is Kodak
Arri is Fuji

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Don't forget that the Mini can shoot raw to CFast cards which are incredibly less expensive than redmags.

The fact that you get a true 4:3 sensor, raw, and internal NDs is really the deal maker for me.

Oh, and the Mini will probably be worth twice as much 24 months from now.

Cheap CFast cards are unreliable compared to the Red Mags. If you want to have CFast cards that reach the level of security you need for productions you might end up with a similar cost as the Red Mags. I rather not put my faith into cheaper media when doing high budget production.

Why will it be worth twice as much two years from now? That makes no sense.

Arri and Red do have there own inherent characteristics, looking at many movies you can clearly see this, red seems to hold up best with scifi type movies, where as arri seems to shine with movies like man from uncle and obviously game of thrones as mentioned here (although as stated on page one there isn't full episodes shot on the red, red was used for safety reasons for some scenes). Skyfall, Mr turner, Fantastic beasts, Mad max, Zero dark thirty, z for zachariah (this had amazing look) many other great examples of arri shining. Maybe once more and more main stream movie productions start using red we'll start seeing some really good examples of red.

It's not simply that both cameras look the same and it's all how it's lit etc. Doing tests and looking at many different movies shot on each camera is what we did when choosing.

Arri to me has the look and feel of traditional cinema, classic cinema. I personally haven’t seen this with Red yet. Maybe Red weapon have cracked the code? 2016 should be a good year to
see.

Also as far as I know netflix will accept 4k mastered movies shot on arri. They simply will not allow there in house productions like house of cards to shoot on anything that is not 4k or above.

Test test test, watch watch watch, then decide.

Troy Smith

This isn't true. The choice of camera often comes down to the choice made by the director or cinematographer based on what they prefer. Yes, Red has been used on very VFX-driven films, but that has more to do with the ability to get more resolution for the VFX work and it has more to do with Arri not being able to give those productions what they need in terms of resolution than that Red has a "sci-fi look". But all in all it's definitely more a choice of the cinematographer and most old school 35mm cinematographers went with the Alexa when it came out because that felt closest to how they've always worked with 35mm and they have kept close to Arri since.

I really don't know what you are talking about here, there has been a lot of productions that have a classic look. Danish Girl and Room are two examples. Getting a certain look has more to do with lens choices really, because the look of the film is more a combination of how a scene is lit and how it's color graded in post. The color science for both Arri and Red are very close to each other so in pure sensor terms the only thing that differs is the resolution really.

It's totally out there to say that one camera is more for one type of movie or another. The choice is probably based on what workflow you have, not the look, because the look is what the PEOPLE creates, not the camera.

 

[shashbugu]

Cheap CFast cards are unreliable compared to the Red Mags. If you want to have CFast cards that reach the level of security you need for productions you might end up with a similar cost as the Red Mags. I rather not put my faith into cheaper media when doing high budget production.

Why will it be worth twice as much two years from now? That makes no sense.







This isn't true. The choice of camera often comes down to the choice made by the director or cinematographer based on what they prefer. Yes, Red has been used on very VFX-driven films, but that has more to do with the ability to get more resolution for the VFX work and it has more to do with Arri not being able to give those productions what they need in terms of resolution than that Red has a "sci-fi look". But all in all it's definitely more a choice of the cinematographer and most old school 35mm cinematographers went with the Alexa when it came out because that felt closest to how they've always worked with 35mm and they have kept close to Arri since.

I really don't know what you are talking about here, there has been a lot of productions that have a classic look. Danish Girl and Room are two examples. Getting a certain look has more to do with lens choices really, because the look of the film is more a combination of how a scene is lit and how it's color graded in post. The color science for both Arri and Red are very close to each other so in pure sensor terms the only thing that differs is the resolution really.

It's totally out there to say that one camera is more for one type of movie or another. The choice is probably based on what workflow you have, not the look, because the look is what the PEOPLE creates, not the camera.

Very well put. this should be the starting point for which to buy

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

well you cant really use "cheap" cfast cards on the alexa mini. only the Arri approved San disk and lexar x3600 models....

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Secret State looks amazing. That's a RED production. Its only technical flaw is that the RED ONE cannot sync with strobes. I've talked about that show before. (I recommend it).

I actually think that the reason why people are against RED is because the image is TOO GOOD. It's too crisp, too sharp, too clean. I think someone in this thread (maybe a page or two back) said that for the most part, RED Dragon sensors should be rated at ASA 2000. I sympathise with that because damn, that sensor is basically IMAX quality being used for standard movie screens. It's actually quite insane how good it is, really.

I also think that there's some virtue signalling going on, e.g. "We don't care about resolution, we care about colour." I note with interest that Sam Mendes shot Spectre on 35mm. But I digress.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Secret State looks amazing. That's a RED production. Its only technical flaw is that the RED ONE cannot sync with strobes. I've talked about that show before. (I recommend it).

I actually think that the reason why people are against RED is because the image is TOO GOOD. It's too crisp, too sharp, too clean. I think someone in this thread (maybe a page or two back) said that for the most part, RED Dragon sensors should be rated at ASA 2000. I sympathise with that because damn, that sensor is basically IMAX quality being used for standard movie screens. It's actually quite insane how good it is, really.

I also think that there's some virtue signalling going on, e.g. "We don't care about resolution, we care about colour." I note with interest that Sam Mendes shot Spectre on 35mm. But I digress.

The "too good" argument can easily be put to rest by using the right lenses. If using lenses like the Hawk C-series the images will look more smooth. If you shoot with Master Primes then it will probably be the most crisp images you can get out of a digital camera. But I don't understand the "too good" argument really because that is just a starting point. If you have a limited image to begin with it will be what it is, but having "perfect" as a starting point you can reach any type of image from that point. Want crisp? Go crisp, want high resolution, get high resolution, want low resolution, go low, want distortion, choose those lenses and so on.

As for Spectre that has probably more to do with Hoyte being the cinematographer, he's always been very much for 35mm, even here in Sweden where there are few 35mm projects going on. The choice of a camera has more to do with what the people on a production are comfortable with, not the actual images that comes out of it. Give an iphone to a professional and he will take images that looks like a 50K photo session. It all comes down to personal and subjective choice.

On top of that there's the technical differences that are the only things that should be compared. What can you actually do with the Weapon that you cannot on the Mini. Things like getting 6K resolution. Some won't need 6K, but some will and some demand it. Choose based on production needs, not "which gives best images", that is irrelevant when both cameras are this good.

 

[Troy Smith]

Yea in theory I hear you all about how it's just lense choice etc etc, but using your example of the movie ROOM does not have the same feel as the classic arri alexa feel, skin tones are not nice, red has a particular look about it,
different strokes for different folks. Red just feels more real life, that's the feeling I get anyway. Comes down to personal taste. All cameras have an inherent look about them, the sony f65 also has a different look and feel to red and arri. Danish girl is closer, but still not quite the same feel as arri, looks pretty good, but still different, nothing wrong with that of course, as all cameras have a different feel, there different sensors.

Secret State skin tones are nothing like arri alexa, different look and feel.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Yea in theory I hear you all about how it's just lense choice etc etc, but using your example of the movie ROOM does not have the same feel as the classic arri alexa feel, skin tones are not nice, red has a particular look about it,
different strokes for different folks. Red just feels more real life, that's the feeling I get anyway. Comes down to personal taste. All cameras have an inherent look about them, the sony f65 also has a different look and feel to red and arri. Danish girl is closer, but still not quite the same feel as arri, looks pretty good, but still different, nothing wrong with that of course, as all cameras have a different feel, there different sensors.

Secret State skin tones are nothing like arri alexa, different look and feel.

It's all done in grading. There's millions of ways to get pleasent skin tones. The thing is that most productions so far with Red has been productions that has a lot of very pushed grading with very unnatural skin tones. Drive is an example where the skin tones doesn't feel right, even though it's Alexa.

Here's some images from different movies shot on Alexa and Dragon. Can you actually say that you can see what's what based on skin tones? Without checking those movies up?

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Look at this beautiful red film:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LNsSjnqBM

 

[Troy Smith]

It's often times more then just seeing a few frame grabs, it's seeing how it feels in motion. All I know is when I watch movies shot on different cameras
they give a inherent different feel. Even if similar style and graded movie. Different film stocks have inherent characteristics, different digital sensors also have inherent characteristics.
Even the motion of arria and red feels very slightly different. Lets drop what is better, all i'm saying is they have inherent different qualities, i prefer one of the other, it's
a personal taste thing. You can also under certain lighting condition throw a 5d, hell even a iphone still in there.

It's all done in grading. There's millions of ways to get pleasent skin tones. The thing is that most productions so far with Red has been productions that has a lot of very pushed grading with very unnatural skin tones. Drive is an example where the skin tones doesn't feel right, even though it's Alexa.

Here's some images from different movies shot on Alexa and Dragon. Can you actually say that you can see what's what based on skin tones? Without checking those movies up?

 

[Troy Smith]

Look at this beautiful red film:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LNsSjnqBM

Quite nice but not the arri look, which is my point, different sensors look different. You go look at a movie with similar look to this shot on arri and you will notice it has a different feel, this
is muddy in a ways. But still quite nice.

 

[Troy Smith]

I just stumbled across this trailer, watched it, thought to myself that looks pretty good, within a few shots I could tell it was a red movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHynMYcJ1zg&nohtml5=False
Has a certain feel about it. Not saying this looks bad, but even with that type of grade you can see it, especially in wider motion shots.

But I mean of course a red camera will look like it's shot on a red camera. Different strokes for different folks, my dad prefers the feel of 60p
over 24p. Not that red and arri is as different as that example, but overall both cameras have a different look and feel even when graded similar.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Wich one would You use for Your movie and why?

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

I just stumbled across this trailer, watched it, thought to myself that looks pretty good, within a few shots I could tell it was a red movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHynMYcJ1zg&nohtml5=False
Has a certain feel about it. Not saying this looks bad, but even with that type of grade you can see it, especially in wider motion shots.

But I mean of course a red camera will look like it's shot on a red camera. Different strokes for different folks, my dad prefers the feel of 60p
over 24p. Not that red and arri is as different as that example, but overall both cameras have a different look and feel even when graded similar.

Hah well the uncorrected magenta highlights certainly scream RED (MX)... Pretty rough color grade and shooting style overall though, i mean those are some super harsh blow-outs in some of those shots and for such a desaturated grade it's extra jarring that colors are super saturated just before blowing out. I think that could happen on any camera but Arri does a much better job of controlling highlights than MX in the first place but also controlling color saturation in highlights which if not controlled really screams DV given how many video cameras for years used only 1D gamma curves that cause big problems in that area. But also keep in mind that was MX, not Dragon.

That said, I am still surprised how much trouble RED's cameras still have with bright saturated colors near clip. They just look straight wrong in a lot of cases, and that happens on Arri and a lot of other cameras too but how is it digital cinema cameras haven't worked that out yet. Can't they just desaturate those highlights to minimize all the color shifting and crazy saturation that goes on up there?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

That said, I am still surprised how much trouble RED's cameras still have with bright saturated colors near clip. They just look straight wrong in a lot of cases, and that happens on Arri and a lot of other cameras too but how is it digital cinema cameras haven't worked that out yet. Can't they just desaturate those highlights to minimize all the color shifting and crazy saturation that goes on up there?

Change your color debayer setting to Dragoncolor and it's solved.

Pat

 

[Troy Smith]

Wich one would You use for Your movie and why?

The inherent look of arri i prefer, simple as that. You can make great movies with either camera, but they do have inherent looks and feel. Of course in post you can try make
one look like the other etc etc. Anyway it's that simple for me, choices are good.

 

[M.Halsell]

ARRI skin tones checkmate with the fewest moves. But that's just a small bit on why any one would choose a camera system over another. But specific to color, It would be wrong to assume every project has budget for a top tier colorist, especially outside of cinema.

Educated customers, who've spent a regular amount of coin are pretty clued in about how to meet expectations of the projects, especially if they've had success in the past with a particular workflow.

The 'explain until you are blue in the face' is one approach, but also taking thoughtful, professional, and measured approach to what the client really, really needs works a bit of magic also.

Per the original post, little background info on why it was camera A vs camera B only. Why wasn't there a third consideration mentioned? In professional conversations, i defer to having all the information on the table. I simply want to know how shallow the water is before I jump I head first to break my neck. All the facts are pertinent to a viable and productive discussion. Otherwise, the conversation runs the risk of being baited.

For the foreseeable end to 2016, no camera manufacturer gets to crowned king of the hill. There is a fair amount of professional slop work out here, that falls on every category of technical and budget tier. Per client, per project, I will recommend the best solution that puts food on my table.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

The inherent look of arri i prefer, simple as that.

Ahh, the look...like clunky?

Look, there's a philosophical term called reflection! I'm sure You're aware of it.

You can make great movies with either camera, but they do have inherent looks and feel.

If ARRI an RED were the only two cameras in the world, I'd think to myself: One of them is a camera, that other thing is just fake.
I'd also ask myself: What's a camera good for?.

Of course in post you can try make
one look like the other etc etc.

Is that what post is for?

Anyway it's that simple for me, choices are good.

For what?

 

[Troy Smith]

very clever

Ahh, the look...like clunky?

Look, there's a philosophical term called reflection! I'm sure You're aware of it.



If ARRI an RED were the only two cameras in the world, I'd think to myself: One of them is a camera, that other thing is just fake.
I'd also ask myself: What's a camera good for?.



Is that what post is for?




For what?

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I seriously considered the Arri Mini before buying the CF Weapon. With the NAB deal I got on my Weapon it was considerably cheaper than the Mini but not sure how this stacks up now. BUT for me one of the most important factors in my decision was the upgrade paths. With the Weapon I can upgrade to 8K if I wish and most importantly I will be able to upgrade it to the next generation chip and I am fairly confident that it will be in the $10,000-$15,000 range. Arri are now running the excellent but now 7 year old chip in their camera and so there is a new chip coming maybe this year or next year. While it is true older Alexa's have held their value, partly because all the machines are running the same chip with the release of the new sensor watch the prices tumble. At the time of my purchase decision I could not determine the upgradability of the Mini therefore its long tern viability.