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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are my emotions about being a new Red Owner common? Going back and forth.

AndreasOberg said:
Welcome to the family Adam.

I understand where you are coming from.
It is a different experience shooting with a Red compared to a DSLR. I guess in many ways the jump is as big as it is from say a compact camera to a DSRL.


Hope that helps a bit!
/Andreas
Click to expand...

I would say more like jumping from iPhone to DLSR... :)
 
Hey Adam,

Like others have said i've been through similar. I mean as a cinema camera, no complaints. But i did also say to myself well maybe i can use this for stills, and messing around too.

I'm not quite there yet, but i've made good progress.

Firstly the image is awesome, if a camera fails that then that's it.

But i am always looking at weight. and ergonomics. so i've found

- You can use an extendable power cord and remove the battery onto a belt or something. That can save quite a bit of weight although i do have those rather nice red vlocks. I didn't know about the power save option mentioned before (the beauty of red user, always learning). So low power modes sound interesting too. I agree about the boot time but a put to sleep and wake up on a press - that would solve a lot of that for me.

- I use a wooden handle with a rosette on the side. It was from a tilta thing for the A7s but works nicely and it can be rotated.

- I have an EVF now, i think that helps too but i do find the red positioning a bit inflexible. I've used a wooden camera quick release adapter to push the mount slightly further out (i'm left eye dominant)

- Then those lenses. Well for run and gun, Lecia M mount lenses can't be beat. But of course there are issues with mounting some of them, especially wides. I'm interested in the CP3s because they're fairly light. As much as i like the look of the Otus's i think they're just too heavy for me and my style.

But i'm learning and adapting. I don't think it would ever replace my A7sII though. It's somewhat more conspicuous too!

But issues, well the magnify is too slow, just don't understand why it's so slow. The responsiveness of the UI is a bit slow too. And the fans can drive me nuts at time.

cheers
Paul
 
I think the feelings you are experiencing are completely normal for most everyone who is used to shooting on DSLR and stepping into the RED ecosphere for the first time. I had the same feelings at times, especially when black shading was not done automatically. There is a so much more to know about shooting the RED cameras, they are each their own animal, they take tons of patience and research when problems arise.

Similar to your experience there was a moment when I was going to sell out of red and move back to Canon. I am so glad I decided to stick with RED. There are so many reasons, but primarily the image quality just can not be matched and the .R3D codec is hand down the best video codec out there. Having a RED camera alone opens up tons of doors. Also I feel that if your really serious about pursuing a video career then why waste your time shooting with anything but the best? Sure it might be a bit heavier and you might deal with a bit more troubleshooting here and there, but its worth the extra work.

Thats just my two cents, take it or leave it.
 
I totally understand your frustrations. While I've used my Dragon a few times as a single shooter, it's not my ideal set-up and I usually go with something else (C300, DSLR) if that's the case and use the Dragon on commercials, films and TV with a bit of crew. I've seen doc and BTS guys using them stripped down to nothing but a still lens, but that's not really how I tend to shoot. So, I think the C200 or upcoming EVA1 make a lot of sense if you're one man band. Personally, if all of my work fell into that category, I'd think hard about whether the all-in-one cam like that might make more sense, even though the RED does have better image quality.
 
adam brennan said:
So I will have to make due with the crop factor of 1.6x I think that is what it is.
Click to expand...

Adam, just to help you out a little bit, Super 35 is pretty much the standard sensor size for digital cinema cameras, which is smaller than DSLR Full Frame size. I think there's the misconception that when you step into cinema cameras, their sensors are FF35. Mostly they are not - unless you go into 8K VV and Alexa 65 territory. The Canon C200 that you're looking at has a Super 35 sensor, so that sensor is also smaller than what you are used to with a DSLR.

S35 has been the standard in cinema for decades. You'll have to get used to shooting with a smaller field of view compared to your DSLR. It's why veteran cinematographers who didn't learn to shoot on DSLRs are talking about their focal lengths and FOVs in relation to Super 35. Also, most cine lenses only have S35 coverage and won't cover FF sensors (the classic Zeiss Super Speeds are a good example of this), but you're fortunate that the Otus does.

Actually, Helium's crop factor in relation to FF35 is around 1.20x, which is somewhere between Full Frame 35mm and Super 35, and bigger than the C200's sensor. But keep in mind, crop factor is relative. To an old-school cinematographer, Super 35 is the baseline, not 35mm DSLR.

BTW, very nice on the optics. The Otus lenses will help the Helium sensor sing.

Here are a couple of links that might help you (courtesy of Phil Holland):

Full Frame vs Super 35

Sensor Chart

One last thing - I agree with you. The Helium sensor's image quality makes me smile each time, and makes up for whatever shortcomings it has.
 
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Brody_B said:
To answer your question I would say no. I am as happy with my Red's as I was on the first day they showed up.
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Same here. Did a whole heap of research to understand its limitations and sweet spots before I got it in my hands - preordered in July, got it in December. First day I got it, I fell in love immediately.
 
For selling my DSMC2 cameras? Prove me wrong. Adam is talking about a one man band setup.
Epic-w... Downgrade in audio. No phantom power. No DC power to camera without 2,000.00 expander. 6k coverage is much smaller than Dragon. 8k coverage is same as dragon 6k. Same slo-mo capabilities except the Dragon covers more again. I don't have to pay to move my monitor around...and I will be damned if you can tell me the difference between the 2 after grading. Oh yeah, also, how are you viewing that 8K? I know what you're gonna say, but again, I can make 6k look just as sharp on a 4K tv.
 
Edson H Philippe said:
I am in the same boat. I own a red scarlet w and for some reason my image never looked like a movie. here is a link of my YouTube Chanel where I post my videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXu1xa8YPKgxf2QP7v01z6A . I have a good Arri light set, but still, my videos does not look nice.[/QUOTE

Shoot Raw. Color grade. Adobe Premiere, use lumitri color. Find your look. Where some color man! Make the color pop! Play with different settings for a long time till you find your look. Save it as a preset. Boom!!! Remember film is an art. Paint your shot how you see it. Wear a lav mic maybe also, or izotope RX6 dereverb in post, but killing the reverb into the cam is easier.
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Edson H Philippe said:
I am in the same boat. I own a red scarlet w and for some reason my image never looked like a movie. here is a link of my YouTube Chanel where I post my videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXu1xa8YPKgxf2QP7v01z6A . I have a good Arri light set, but still, my videos does not look nice.
Click to expand...

With respect your videos don't look like movies because your lighting is flat and you have zero production design/art directing. Not saying they are bad videos but you are seemingly disappointed with them, visually. You could be shooting on 35mm film and they would not look like movies. A good camera is no substitute for learning the craft and there's a ton of things you could do to make them look better.
 
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Ben Scott said:
With respect your videos don't look like movies because your lighting is flat and you have zero production design/art directing. ot saying they are bad videos but you are seemingly disappointed with them, visually. You could be shooting on 35mm film and they would not look like movies. A good camera is no substitute for learning the craft and there's a ton of things you could do to make them look better.
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I have to agree with Ben here. Making something look "filmic" is mostly about knowing how todo it, not what equipment you have. Sure, having a RED camera helps, but it's no substitute for knowledge.

Filmmaking is a craft, and it's best, an art.

The equipment is always secondary.
 
You properly described the experience.

Get bigger batteries.
 
Jeremy Ryan said:
Oh yeah, also, how are you viewing that 8K? I know what you're gonna say, but again, I can make 6k look just as sharp on a 4K tv.
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No you can not. Absolutely not, sure you can get good results with dragon but helium beats it. In difficult situations helium beats dragon by far. Simply on the downsampling alone. Downsample from 8k to 4k is quite a lot better than 6k to 4k. and yes it´s a different sensor the DR is more to the left. So it sees further into the dark then dragon.

For what we used helium for the difference is huge.


But sure if you dont see the difference between something that captures about double the accuracy then sure why not shoot HD, most people dont see if you scale it up to 4k.



The big differences to me comes in the fine textures. A Cmos sensor capture 1/3 of the resolution at best and then guess the rest. So your 6k dragon is a 2k camera that guesstimate the other 4k´s to make a 6k image. Helium captures almost twice the amount of pixels as dragon 6k.... so yes that gives you almost a true UHD capture. The fact that almost every pixel actually has a value for red green and blue. from downsampling 8k to 1/4 of the size so 4 pixels becomes one is giving you way better skin tones and things like it.
 
Homer Dulu said:
Adam, just to help you out a little bit, Super 35 is pretty much the standard sensor size for digital cinema cameras, which is smaller than DSLR Full Frame size. I think there's the misconception that when you step into cinema cameras, their sensors are FF35. Mostly they are not - unless you go into 8K VV and Alexa 65 territory. The Canon C200 that you're looking at has a Super 35 sensor, so that sensor is also smaller than what you are used to with a DSLR.

S35 has been the standard in cinema for decades. You'll have to get used to shooting with a smaller field of view compared to your DSLR. It's why veteran cinematographers who didn't learn to shoot on DSLRs are talking about their focal lengths and FOVs in relation to Super 35. Also, most cine lenses only have S35 coverage and won't cover FF sensors (the classic Zeiss Super Speeds are a good example of this), but you're fortunate that the Otus does.

Actually, Helium's crop factor in relation to FF35 is around 1.20x, which is somewhere between Full Frame 35mm and Super 35, and bigger than the C200's sensor. But keep in mind, crop factor is relative. To an old-school cinematographer, Super 35 is the baseline, not 35mm DSLR.

BTW, very nice on the optics. The Otus lenses will help the Helium sensor sing.

Here are a couple of links that might help you (courtesy of Phil Holland):

Full Frame vs Super 35

Sensor Chart

One last thing - I agree with you. The Helium sensor's image quality makes me smile each time, and makes up for whatever shortcomings it has.
Click to expand...


Totally agree! Thank you!
 
Thank you everyone for your valuable input and links. I still have a lot to learn. My full time job is a photographer and I have about 4 times that in photog gear than I do overall in my Red Epic w. So I totally get quality in quality out. I decided I am going to keep the Red camera, there were some comments made here that put things in perspective and good to know that many of you experienced the same emotions and debates in your mind. I am going to take Abelcine's Reducation program in a few weeks and I think that will help with the choppy self taught information I have. I am sure that 3 day course will help fill in some cracks where I will have some A-ha moments on this camera. I am sad to find out I don't have an upgrade path to a different Red camera in the future. Hope this camera is good a while since I drop a lot of $ in it with accessories and so on.
 
adam brennan said:
Totally agree! Thank you!
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You're welcome!

adam brennan said:
Thank you everyone for your valuable input and links. I still have a lot to learn. My full time job is a photographer and I have about 4 times that in photog gear than I do overall in my Red Epic w. So I totally get quality in quality out. I decided I am going to keep the Red camera, there were some comments made here that put things in perspective and good to know that many of you experienced the same emotions and debates in your mind. I am going to take Abelcine's Reducation program in a few weeks and I think that will help with the choppy self taught information I have. I am sure that 3 day course will help fill in some cracks where I will have some A-ha moments on this camera. I am sad to find out I don't have an upgrade path to a different Red camera in the future. Hope this camera is good a while since I drop a lot of $ in it with accessories and so on.
Click to expand...

Having a background as a photographer definitely helps - you have an innate understanding of exposure, which to me, is one of the hardest things for novices to get a grip on.

Also, I am certain the Reducation program will fill in all of the gaps - that is one of the first things that is recommended when buying a new Red camera because of what you need to do to get the most out of it. Even the DP I'm working for admits that using a Red is significantly different from the Arris that he is used to, and needed to trust me to operate it well, so I'm sure you will find the class useful.

And don't be sad - there have previously been hints from Jarred of an Epic-W upgrade down the pipeline...
 
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