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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Redray Laser Surface Computer Touch Table project

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Wayne Morellini

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Though I would like to make one , but might not be able afford to,, I am interested in looking into this. Anybody else interested?

I have also been considering talking to electronics people about an DIY 8k+ electro wetting display. These are simple displays with two fluids between sheets, as power is to the applied to the circuits, typically an oil is attracted to a surface changing color, or between the circuits allow light through. Switching times are something like 1/1000-500th a second. Bistable, no power is required to hold a pattern. A laser table though could be a better image for now and simpler.

There is one market with stakes as big as any mentioned for Redray Laser projectors: Windows/Mac/Android etc multi-touch Surface tables, instead of the washed out cheap home made ones, that do not have enough resolution (8k is preferable).

Been keeping my eye out for cheaper surface tables for design, document editing and research. However, it is something every home could do with. I realised that if Redray was small and cheap enough, that a table could be made to take it. My patio table is just an open frame with a five foot glass on it unobstructed, and not expensive, and I think 7 foot versions are out there. Unlike many of the homemade surface tables, the laser projector allows people to sit at the table with their legs underneath, by mounting the projector centrally facing upwards, protected by a cone going to the edges). Using newer rear projection films, such as 3m has for one example, can allow a high contrast saturated image in normal light. The web camera type systems used on DIY units would be affective. Going a step further a hinged tilt mechanism can be used to tilt the frame, cone and projector up like a draughtsman work table. Tilting it up as a screen is possible angling the projector, which could be used for the draft table function also (but the surface becomes to high for normal seating). Of course, you can low profile the projection down to 12cm with new rear projection technology designs (Laservue is 30cm I think for example). An observation, is that the computer components can fit in the frame of the table (narrow form factors).

This would be better with a smaller 120 inch (200 inch blacked out) laser projector at around $2000, plus table and computer to get the market penetration. However the projector would be rather sellable on it's own :-)
Click to expand...

Here is good argument for it's use in the industry:

The workstation of the future, and a good addition to editing environment. People do not realise it, but it allows you to arrange work objects on a more traditional scale, but stacked.... more than a sound desk, your documents, multi media, clips, photos animations, audio. People think that all they need is a 24 inch monitor and a table is to big to reach out, but the monitor is the restriction. You organise your work into a viewable area while seated, you then put needed elements within reach and others to be used elements around the table for future use, and scheduled projects. You only get up around the table when you need something extra, or when you are walking around on massive projects, like they used to with photos, young mans game I know, but good workflow. You [look in stacks] and you see what is in [them]. And other things, this is how I design things. So, a big table is useful. I'm looking forwards to work desks like this. I have been thinking about the tables years before Microsoft Surface. Your...
Click to expand...
 
Some basic information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PixelSense
www.experience-it-all.com/tag/multitouch-table/
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/pixelsense/default.aspx
http://vimeo.com/channels/surface/
http://mi-lab.org/projects/office-of-tomorrow/#interactivetable

Just three of many many DIY projects, I grabbed off the first page of a google search. YouTube has many.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/maximum_pc_builds_a_multitouch_surface_computer http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/maximum_pc_builds_a_multitouch_surface_computer?page=0,5
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-a-Multi-Touch-surface/
http://lifehacker.com/5514243/make-your-own-multi+touch-surface

Lists of examples:
http://mrwhatis.com/diy-surface-table.html
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=diy+windows+surface+table
http://www.androidnova.org/diy-microsoft-surface/

Here are some examples of high contrast rear projection material:
http://www.da-lite.com/products/index.php?cID=10
http://modernhmong.com/?w=4rYnzAwzv1g&title=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQ1Gb2vNEk
This one uses a 3M window tint film to make a high contrast.
http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/7348/

I have a black glass table a laser could punch through and be diffused by, providing an almost perfect black (the hot spots allowing blind people to feel the image).

A technical guide:
http://www.academia.edu/570138/Multi-touch_surfaces_A_technical_guide


Black+microlensing rear projection film, also used in rear projection sets:

http://www.gizmag.com/vikuiti-rear-projection-film/12202/
http://www.spyeglass.com/3M-vikuiti-film.html
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...plications/UniqueApplications/DigitalSignage/
http://solutions.3mindia.co.in/wps/...Product-Info/Rear_Projection_Window_Displays/
 
From some recent correspondance:

The workstation of the future, and a good addition to editing environment. People do not realise it, but it allows you to arrange work objects on a more traditional scale, but stacked.... more than a sound desk, your documents, multi media, clips, photos animations, audio. People think that all they need is a 24 inch monitor and a table is to big to reach out, but the monitor is the restriction. You organise your work into a viewable area while seated, you then put needed elements within reach and others to be used elements around the table for future use, and scheduled projects. You only get up around the table when you need something extra, or when you are walking around on massive projects, like they used to with photos, young mans game I know, but good workflow. You [look in stacks] and you see what is in [them]. And other things, this is how I design things. So, a big table is useful. I'm looking forwards to work desks like this. I have been thinking about the tables years before Microsoft Surface. Your...

.

Been looking at some cheap projectors to get something working while I wait for something descent in my price range.
 
The Table

The Table

I've tested out the black under surface of the table with some little red green and blue led lights I picked up.

LightTest.jpg


Doing the table surface:

The surface is a really mat black, and It does give a descent diffusion of the light coming through. But it has grain in it, and is uneven, even though it looks good. The grain is not a worry for the normal low res projector used for these things, but is large enough in relation to a 4k pixel to detract from it. It also seems to visually dim red and green light more than blue, though the photograph, done with a tablet, does not seem to convey that. I do not know if it is just dimming it, or it is a problem with color constancy as well at brighter light levels, as this probably is not acting as a neutral density filter. However, as predicted, it maybe alright for a Redray Laser, or other honking great big projector, to penetrate the black layer, but not for a normal projector.

I will probably have to strip back the black and recoat the glass with something better, but what to use to give an even texture and good spread ? A thin black (maybe window tint) layer with another thin white layer or optical spreading lens sheet, and maybe a final thin black layer (if a white layer is used) might do. The thing with using white on the back, is that it will reflect light and reflect some of the projector beam. An optical spreading lens sheet would basically just pass most of the light, and can pass it from the direction of the projector (if designed for that). A cheaper option is a black or dark grey coating that gets it's darkness from just passing the light through. So, the top dark coat passes to a blocking bottom dark coat or the other way around, the system is just stop ambient light coming through. One dark coat is also a diffuser to spread the light as well. This opens a a couple of practical combinations. It would be less hassle to buy another brand of table. Of course, I could always just buy the 3M Vikiuti black screen and whack it on the de-coated glass. I know which one will be much harder, and which one would be more expensive instead.


Here are some pictures of the table:

Tablea.jpg


WindowsTablea.jpg


Of course, this last one is what one of those Windows cloud desktop wallpapers would look like on it with a laser projector behind it ;)
 
Found this 84 inch capacitive touch projected computer table.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/06/3m-touch-systems-84-inch-projected-capacitive-touch-display/

Am considering buying this 24 inch tablet display due to the processing power for remote desktop from the pc etc, but have just realised it is coming too late, and the 20 inch 4k Panasonic tablet might come, or other lay flat 30 inch 4k display.:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/9/3858124/viewsonic-24-inch-android-display-4k-monitor-prototype
 
why not use a big display rather than projection? that would simplify things considerably...
 
Paul, there are a few issues. Putting aside the ability to make a table for $200-300 plus projector (read the links above). Projection can be done cheaper, Red laser is the objective (we hope). Flat panels suffer off axis issues and dimness, and use is mostly off angle. Unless it is made to sit on it's back, laying it down can be unhealthy for it. The table allows higher than 8k resolution if you can manage it (been in contact with people with low end 8k chips last year (laser light source would be interesting) Red laser is behind, I recommended they go 8k with upgradable display port to future proof it). Finally, $30k to over $100k for similar sized panel, with likely no where near the performance of the Red laser (think 4k laservue TV). Even using a cheap fullhd panel, you then have to convert it to multi touch, which is not cheap for an adequate solution (sticking an over head camera does not tell you everything and can be obscured by leaning over the table) and leap motion (multi units) is awkward, it will probably give a better view of you to a hacker on the internet, than to touching the surface. With the projection table a camera can be rigged underneath cheaply with some ir led illumination that shows up when you touch the surface even lightly.

I think I have a link to a link to a 27inch viewsonic flat panel table above, but 27 inches is just a desktop pad, or kiosk, ridiculously small.

Within a few years we might get printable oled to do the job, but just because it is oled does not mean that the printable version will shape up. However even non printable oled has something like around 140% color from memory, not the 200% that can be gotten from laser. Oled is not that efficient, there is a electo luminance technology promising up to 100 efficiency, that would be a great flat panel display. Laser can potentially get a lot more efficiency than oled too, I have a design proposal. I also have a low profile design proposal that can fit in conventional flat panel, but even if I can get it down to 10cm, that is similar to the table frame + top. Just because someone has failed before does not mean something can be done.

Electro wetting could be made to use reflective, high color gamut or high efficiency lighting. I'm actually been interested in putting forward a electronic hobbyist electro wetting 8k display project separately. The trick is that because the display is so big, with simple construction, the circuits are doable outside a production plant. It does not matter too much to me, I prefer to work on a different technology.

The biggest reason to do this, it is just a simple fun sexy thing to do as a hobby. At the moment, I'm busy and holding off to see how the projection prices go.
 
I'm looking at doing a cheap laser projector project on kickstarter.

I have just been speaking to a friend about kickstarter and realised something. Recently I had a revelation going back to grass roots in my projects, and realised there were opportunities in the products I was looking at nearly ten years ago. I realised I have a very simple product for kick starter that can help move towards better and better iterations of products, like higher resolution projectors when they are affordable. I am looking into doing a cheap laser like projector. Not a TV set yet though.

I will have to have a good think about it, as I am writing a book and starting a music festival (which is becoming almost self running) with my health improvements. The projector can work as part of the simple 3rd world computer project which was scheduled after the book.
Click to expand...
 
A bit of an update.

A bit of an update.

Now time lines are more certain, I thought I would give a bit of an update.

After a hectic week, I have an engineer lined up, a more firm time line, and am making other component contacts. The rest of the business team are to come. Unfortunately I haven't done an MBA, or degree in physics yet, which would have helped.

The Redray laser projector is more than what I need, so we are looking at maybe a cheaper simpler target product to start, that people around the place will enjoy, not so much in video/film production, but in general. I aim to use it for the table project, but when I can afford to I can drop in a Redray Laser into the table as desired, maybe they will be up to version 2 by then. I think many more consumers will be interested in the cheaper more affordable alternative for a table. Even if redray were $3k + a good computer, I think it would be too much for most of the market.

I've been advised to look further afield than kick starter, and am open to private funding.

Now, onto time lines. There should be very little public action before latter in the year. You may see me drop in a led projector into the table as a fill in test bed in the mean time. You probably won't see me get a 70 inch LCD TV and flip it on it's back, as some think is a good idea. As far as I know, it is bad for the big lcd's unless they are designed for that, plus viewing angle issues on cheap panels, and at the price, you would be better going 4k on a Redray laser projector. Even at SD resolution I can do some interesting stuff in gaming. I have been wanting to move into gaming for years and am interested in exploring some things.

So, while I'm offline busy doing other things I'll try to keep in mind advancing the basic table here as well.

Thanks to all the readers in the background, and again, if anybody else would like to do a table here or contribute help to advance this one at a reasonable cost, please feel free to do so. This is thread is meant to be a fun project. I think production wise, production tables are a thing of the future. The crowd funded projector ultimately will go somewhere else
 
Another person that has found some projection materials:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?94418-Screen-Material-for-Laser-Projector

http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/co...rigid/starglas_60/starglas_60_commercial.html

http://www.dnp-screens.com/DNP08/Products/Front-projection/Fixed-screens/dnp-Supernova-Blade.aspx

http://www.screeninnovations.com/commercial/fixed/black-diamond-zero-edge/


The latest news is I'm still snowed under and just getting back to scanning. So things on a hold till I catch up.

I remember a way to use some lcds for this, that I wanted to use to improve the angle of my tv years ago, but the multitouch is then costly. Nope, just figured a way around that now, but costly to develop. Have my eye on a little bright hd led projector for prototyping, I could use a lcd instead for prototyping if I can do the multitouch.
 
The interactive touch screen foil pages at prodisplay lists 4 screen types they use, including the holo transparent screen.
The interactive foil Has two point touch built In.

www.prodisplay.com/interactive-window-touch-foil-screen.html

Ok, here is a page with a few films they claim to have, but I cant even get a reply when I ask to buy some. Their links on this page goes back to this page it comes from. I thought I put this up, and others, here, but it is not here.

http://www.aaxatech.com/products/film.htm

The films mentioned on both these pages may be mostly from other companies, so you could google their names to find the original manufacturers.
 
OK, where were we, an update. Let down a little over the year, and still waiting to find out what my engineer I had lined up is doing, but as it looks like he is on line for the promotion of a lifetime instead I don't expect things to go forwards. Rather than do an 8k protected table (I did find cheap parts), I am getting back to basics, while we wait for the Crimson tide to come in.
 
Some thoughts on touch surface computing.

People often talk about using LCD displays as large touch surface tables. Apart from the reasons I mentioned earlier, there is another issue I did not mention. That to protect the display generally the table surface has to be thicker the bigger it is. Apart from whatever is in front of the display itself this adds a thickening gap between the image and the touchable surface. On a vertical touch display this may not be much, but on a horizontal display it needs more protection, especially if it is going to be used as an actual table. This leads to a misalignment between where you perceive to touch the display and where the touch surface records the touch, due to the angle you are looking at, often side on. When dealing with large objects and gestures this is not much of a problem, but the secret is that you want to deal with small local areas to do detailed work, requiring near surface display. This will often require some sort of image to be projected up towards the surface. Hence projection can offer an optimal touch solution that other technologies would find hard to do. I have been thinking of ways to do this, and recently have found a military supplier that might be onto the sane sort if solution.

I could have considered doing the electro wetting design, but getting a 80 inch transparent circuit on glass cheap is not going to be easy.
 
I did manage to pull up some new 3m tables:

http://ideum.com/coffee-tables/
http://ideum.com/drafting-touchtable/
http://ideum.com/redefined/

And Lenovo 28 inch smart 4k android display, as well as sub 4k smaller Horizon 2 table.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...840m-monitor/1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...on-laptop.html

But it is hard to find more without knowing where to look.

Here is an interesting one, I had an idea to make a x86 processing product that could plug into an android tablet to run PC software, Linux or windows. At the moment, unless you have a x86 version you have to emulate x86 software very slowly. But setting up such a thing is full of compromises and difficult, however Intel has just done a suitable PC on a SD card:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...intel-edison/1
 
Here is an interesting thought. An android smart TV converted to a touch table. I know there is potentially problems here with the flat/inclined mounting of the display but something that might be cheap. However, 32 inch is not such a great span, 40 might be pushing it. Then you can link it to a PC, as above.
 
Ahhg, where the projector,! At least when they get the Red laser projector out after all this time, it should be like $1000. :)

Anyway, TI has full HD pico projector chips, which means in an array you can get Ultra. HD, but it won't be cheap. It is time that QVGA projectors were $30, and full HD 500 lumen led Pico projectors $300. These things are the sort of toy every boy should want, but they can't afford a descent one.
 
New displays and display tech.

New displays and display tech.

Looking up an old link I found new Microsoft perspective pixel touch displays from 55-84 inch. Seems only the 55 inch is rollable.

http://www.microsoft.com/office/perceptivepixel/products/default.aspx


During the week I checked out a number of UHD displays for colour shift at side on angles for table use, very disappointing. Surprised the the Sharps (no UHD here) had color shift, they had invented a wide angle technology almost decades ago. The Sony also showed shift. But surprisingly, the original LG 84 inch had the best screen tech of the lot. I can't remember exactly, but I think the Samsung also was similar, making me wonder if it uses the same lcd technology. However, flipping the 84 inch on its back is probably not an option that won't wreck it, as I said before. If the Samsung is made in a way that could endue it, then that us a possibility.

More excitingly, got to see the LG OLED, and noticed the power consumption. otherwise a great display compared to the others. I suspect the power consumption might be down to 25% efficiency white oled filtered for colors, wasting up to 2/3rds the energy for a white screen etc. However that figure doesn't add up, so I don't know how they did those energy star metrics for this screen. Maybe the oled is the up to 100% efficient type. Anyhow, it should be under 100 watts at 100% efficiency with no filters. However, there has been lots of limited life problems with various colors with the 100% efficiency type, so shifted primary colors (slightly complementary) are used, and 25% for one of the primaries. However I have a technological enhancement to reach 100% across the spectrum.

Triluminos technology seems to be partly related to something I was looking at doing.
 
OK, I've come across a mother load of information, that even has how to use an LCD as a touch table by removing it from its frame and mounting it on a substrate with a backlight and camera behind it (if the internal cables reach) I think with a layer over the top of the lcd too. Again a special LCD setup to stop damage (but I don't see myself doing that with a large panel). There are also scaling issues of highly accurate touch overlays for a normal LCD.

I'll give the all pages wiki page to see the breadth. Just click home page to go to main page:

http://wiki.nuigroup.com/Special:Allpages

http://wiki.nuigroup.com/Frequently_asked_questions

There was s a problem with the Vikuiti material by 3M, it has a 90% viewing angle otherwise the best with a bright projector. I don't know why 3m did not figure that out, as there are various screen technologies that can spread the light, and accept light from a particular direction only and most of it, which would make Vikuiti a great allrounder.
 
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