Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[Wayne Morellini]

Now, yes, the upgrade path was a bit awkward. To do upgrades you need a clearly definable swappable parts strategy. So, say if the Red One was designed to be upgradable. You could have a sensor module that slid out the side, boards that slid out and new ones slid in. But ultimately, post all in one bodes, you just swap the redording head module out (brain) for a new one and resell the old one, maybe to a rental company. If you can't easy swap things inside these things then it is problematic. Going back to the Red One, and say if it had been designed to be easily upgradable, but the new stuff couldn't fit (as happened with the Scarlet) then latter when things can fit you could have swapped in a helium sensor and modern redcode. But this hasn't happened.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

This whole thing of Red's:

We've lost the real filmmaking talk, that core ideal of democratising the filmmaking world with low cost high quality gear that started the Red hype back in 2006/2007.

This ideal came from Me. I'm the only one to extensively write on this before, to outline what became the Red One strategy and suggest it to Red. Efforts which started in 2003 trying to work out an affordable camera, but other efforts before that. People from the 2004 group are well aware of various things, and some of my ideas on advanced compression, and some work at Red from that period.

People who "make" things happen, often, obstinately, don't make it happen right (due to their souped up minds), without guidance on what to do. Hiring such people in isolation is allways a risk, as without proper input they can lead you off track. If you took away all the adopted input put into Red, it seriously wouldn't be what it had been today. But God knows.


I work on a whole heap of things beyond what Red thinks of, beyond their pay grades. The things like I have suggested here, motion mounts, HDR technique (just the common type), 3D techniques, pocket by email which became the camcorder and then the fixed) are just child stuff. But seriously, how often over the years have I pointed to the need for Something like the Panavision DXL/Eng/All in ones, to better suited more markets simultaneously. But this is what you get 10+ year delays friending on who you hire.

Red should have dedicated owner operator, ENG and wedding units to try to figure out how to best suite models to those tasks in order to market them. They should be running full sized adds in those periodicals for those sectors estoling the virtues of their models for that work, and producing only one or two cameras to service those elegantly (not a pro military term) that can also at as cinema cameras. If you have the best option for a wedding, and a wide installed base, you could even advertise on a wedding magazine, and link to an independent website listing 5 tiers of operators in areas accross the world. So the bride can ring the best quality operators she can afford. That's strategy. This whole sell expensive modules and push the tech, is not much of a strategy, as any competitively easily decide to do the same.

It is only the price strip mining mentality of the entrenched industry out there, which stops them competing like that above. But that is a house of cards. The slackness of world governments results on their citizens of being ripped off hundreds of billions a year of money that won't earn nearly that much in the budget. If governments did their Job, many foreign producers would be in desperate legal trouble. It likely won't touch Red, except these producers then would have to start to compete on real terms. Just about everybody is poorer, in various way, due to the way things are run.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I give Christoffer and Phil my vote for best written and thought through posts on this.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Where's the narrative filmmaking focus that once dominated the Red arena?

Where are you looking to find it ?

The movie we-co produced, posted on this forum in "Shot on Red", won awards all over the world, ASC award as well, was shot on Epic.

The Monstro isn't the same milestone as Epic was, Dragon was or Red Once was.

Yes, the effect naturally weakens over time and people tend to expect the same all the time. In everything.

Meanwhile Monstro is an 8K high-end Vista Vision sensor and some don't share the same impression.

It's a small step forward, regardless of how technically advanced everyone tries to argue it is.

Found any other 8K Vista Vision sensors ? Newer and improved over the previous 8K Vista Vision sensor ?

 

[David Peterson]

(emphasis mine

Yup, this is exactly why I proposed that Red should focus all their efforts into a single top tier camera that gets tested into absurdity so that it's the most reliable camera on the market with standard protocol features and a color science that looks like the standard every seasoned creative cinematographer and filmmaker are used to, 35mm. Arri wins most battles for narrative projects, that's a fact and they do it with a soon ten year old sensor technology. This is the reason I'm moving away from upgrading. I've gone from Scarlet to Weapon 6K MG but the way upgrades are handled now it's just a mess of different sensors, custom made cameras, bridging technology for Panavision and tech that gets obsolete faster than it reaches the hands of the customers (Weapon 6K was taken down from the store right after I got mine into usage). On top of that, most of the interesting side-gear is made from third party, which many times have problems with new firmwares or bugs that Red and the third party blames on each other.

It's just a big mess of a strategy that makes Red seem to have lost focus. Now with the focus on the Hydrogen and holographic content, the rumors of a 8K prosumer camera and so on, even me who's been a big fan of Red for ten years start to become tired. I've lost interest in upgrading, I've lost interest in the hype for new sensors, I'm tired of hearing how awesome everything is from überfans who seem to post more about their camera system than what they're actually using it for.

The bottom line of it all is that I feel Red lost touch with it's core ideals. It's a tech toy company for the rich more than a disrupting camera developer company. I remember the early days of Red, how disruptive it was, how special it was with their focus on making a camera for the filmmakers. How Peter Jacksons short film was truly fucking cool to watch in 4K and how the focus on one single camera felt structured and handled with care.

I feel that this passion for filmmaking as a core ideal at Red has been lost in favor of a quantity of gear to use, a bragging contest for the richest owner operators getting the top tier gear earlier than others, most projects shown are not movies anymore but questionably undressed models walking on a beach at sun set as a "test of the DR". Back in the early days, this place was all about what we could do with the camera, showing off short films, feature films, major studio films that were shot on it and so on. Early days, the "SHOT ON RED" section was filled with great discussions about projects people put up, now most people only get one or two replies on their projects put up.

Red loosing out more and more in the narrative filmmaking world, where almost everyone choose another camera for their project than Red creates a position where Red is only used for fashion, music videos and small scale projects. We've lost the real filmmaking talk, that core ideal of democratising the filmmaking world with low cost high quality gear that started the Red hype back in 2006/2007.

Yup! I agree.
If RED announces a top tier camera which can hold its own for a ten year span (like the Arri Alexa Classic did) then that will be a major achievement indeed!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

RED demonstrated "Ranger" cameras, which were/are like smaller versions of a DXL to some extent. But in terms of just general features what are you looking for that a DXL can do that a stock say Weapon Monstro body cannot?

I say this as wireless video module is about to drop this year and a few other things.

Also, what feature do you feel are missing on say a Weapon camera overall?

Just curious.

Red covered the wide market with compact & modular approach and in that context that is a proper choice.

Production machinery needs a silent, no black shading, no fuss "most in one" body camera with a larger control for the AC and better shoulder balance. So a larger cooling block and fan instead of tiny fans. Physically the approach similar to Fincher's Xenomorph but with bulletproof Alexa/Venice style menu instead of a huge touch screen. AC practicality is crucial for shooting efficiency and workflow reliability and compactness is a handicap there because of a need to fiddle. So if the body was two inches longer let's say and could accommodate different thermal management and AC control with all standard I/Os, with reduced variables and improved workflow efficiency, the camera would jump few levels up in production domain's eyes. I'd also lower the battery mount for better weight distribution and lower COG. Also, fixed top mount monitor is a handicap.

So camera body optimization for the cinema style shooting purpose, in a nutshell.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Red covered the wide market with compact & modular approach and in that context that is a proper choice.

Production machinery needs a silent, no black shading, no fuss "most in one" body camera with a larger control for the AC and better shoulder balance. So a larger cooling block and fan instead of tiny fans. Physically the approach similar to Fincher's Xenomorph but with bulletproof Alexa/Venice style menu instead of a huge touch screen. AC practicality is crucial for shooting efficiency and workflow reliability and compactness is a handicap there because of a need to fiddle. So if the body was two inches longer let's say and could accommodate different thermal management and AC control with all standard I/Os, with reduced variables and improved workflow efficiency, the camera would jump few levels up in production domain's eyes. I'd also lower the battery mount for better weight distribution and lower COG. Also, fixed top mount monitor is a handicap.

So camera body optimization for the cinema style shooting purpose, in a nutshell.

I 100% agree with this.
Give me a maximum of latitude and a minimum of fuss.
And make it as durable as Ronford Baker sticks.

And don't undercut it with a nextgen 18 months later.
Get it right for the long term before releasing it.

That's a cinema camera.

Oh and take that stupid skull off of it.
I want a camera for adults, not for spring breakers in extended adolescence.

 

[M Most]

Red covered the wide market with compact & modular approach and in that context that is a proper choice.

Production machinery needs a silent, no black shading, no fuss "most in one" body camera with a larger control for the AC and better shoulder balance. So a larger cooling block and fan instead of tiny fans. Physically the approach similar to Fincher's Xenomorph but with bulletproof Alexa/Venice style menu instead of a huge touch screen. AC practicality is crucial for shooting efficiency and workflow reliability and compactness is a handicap there because of a need to fiddle. So if the body was two inches longer let's say and could accommodate different thermal management and AC control with all standard I/Os, with reduced variables and improved workflow efficiency, the camera would jump few levels up in production domain's eyes. I'd also lower the battery mount for better weight distribution and lower COG. Also, fixed top mount monitor is a handicap.

So camera body optimization for the cinema style shooting purpose, in a nutshell.

Didn't you just describe the Panavision DXL?

 

[Milano Questa]

This whole thing of Red's:



This ideal came from Me. I'm the only one to extensively write on this before, to outline what became the Red One strategy and suggest it to Red. Efforts which started in 2003 trying to work out an affordable camera, but other efforts before that. People from the 2004 group are well aware of various things, and some of my ideas on advanced compression, and some work at Red from that period.

People who "make" things happen, often, obstinately, don't make it happen right (due to their souped up minds), without guidance on what to do. Hiring such people in isolation is allways a risk, as without proper input they can lead you off track. If you took away all the adopted input put into Red, it seriously wouldn't be what it had been today. But God knows.


I work on a whole heap of things beyond what Red thinks of, beyond their pay grades. The things like I have suggested here, motion mounts, HDR technique (just the common type), 3D techniques, pocket by email which became the camcorder and then the fixed) are just child stuff. But seriously, how often over the years have I pointed to the need for Something like the Panavision DXL/Eng/All in ones, to better suited more markets simultaneously. But this is what you get 10+ year delays friending on who you hire.

Red should have dedicated owner operator, ENG and wedding units to try to figure out how to best suite models to those tasks in order to market them. They should be running full sized adds in those periodicals for those sectors estoling the virtues of their models for that work, and producing only one or two cameras to service those elegantly (not a pro military term) that can also at as cinema cameras. If you have the best option for a wedding, and a wide installed base, you could even advertise on a wedding magazine, and link to an independent website listing 5 tiers of operators in areas accross the world. So the bride can ring the best quality operators she can afford. That's strategy. This whole sell expensive modules and push the tech, is not much of a strategy, as any competitively easily decide to do the same.

It is only the price strip mining mentality of the entrenched industry out there, which stops them competing like that above. But that is a house of cards. The slackness of world governments results on their citizens of being ripped off hundreds of billions a year of money that won't earn nearly that much in the budget. If governments did their Job, many foreign producers would be in desperate legal trouble. It likely won't touch Red, except these producers then would have to start to compete on real terms. Just about everybody is poorer, in various way, due to the way things are run.

When's the last time one of your inventions or ideas made it to the market?

 

[Eric Lange]

Didn't you just describe the Panavision DXL?

+1

That's exactly what I was thinking but was just too worn out to make such obvious statement that I thought I must be stupid and missing the point here.

So it's rental only... Fine; that's what has to be done for film/production companies.

AND not for nothing the RED brain is eminently re-engineerable (within limits). So if you have to buy a Monstro VV some of the physical characteristics can be augmented.

I come back to like, O.K. what specs and what price point for said "ONE" camera that does it all for 15 years? (from RED... Although this all a bit 'Arm chair"/alternate reality/wish list /alternate road map of the past).

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Didn't you just describe the Panavision DXL?

I described a cine style camera body and Alexa, Venice, Varicam, C700, Phantom Flex and DXL could all be associated.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

When's the last time one of your inventions or ideas made it to the market?

Have you used a Red One?

Seriously, you just quoted.. And I've been directly asked and inputted into the design of two other cinema cameras. I've also done hundreds of adopted inputs from cameras to operating systems to web browsers, urban planning and infrastructure (mediocre, but Government tends to stuff those up). And it wasn't because these people were smart enough to reach the conclusion before hand.

 

[Björn Benckert]

If you want to see the future try djigo4. Fly, shot, edit, grade add graphics and music and uppload. All in 4k, all through your phone and quick and easy as hell. As I see it red has the best sensor on the planet with monstro, biggest leap forward so far. Then you add the ”media machine” to that abd you got posibilities to cloud rushes straight trough your phone, Live feeds, in camera editing etc. Sure thats possibly not how its done in hollywood. But doing it just like the big guys is not reslly being disruptive is it?

Also we all remember when push comes to show red has sliced prices in half before. A monstro most likly comes with high production costs involved. But its also proven that they can make Raven for far less. So if they can ramp up the numbers and streamline the production with FOXCON its very likly monstro comes at a raven price quite soon. I doubt arri can do the same with the LF as it will sell in far les numbers.

 

[Eric Lange]

If you want to see the future try djigo4. Fly, shot, edit, grade add graphics and music and uppload. All in 4k, all through your phone and quick and easy as hell. As I see it red has the best sensor on the planet with monstro, biggest leap forward so far. Then you add the ”media machine” to that abd you got posibilities to cloud rushes straight trough your phone, Live feeds, in camera editing etc. Sure thats possibly not how its done in hollywood. But doing it just like the big guys is not reslly being disruptive is it?

Also we all remember when push comes to show red has sliced prices in half before. A monstro most likly comes with high production costs involved. But its also proven that they can make Raven for far less. So if they can ramp up the numbers and streamline the production with FOXCON its very likly monstro comes at a raven price quite soon. I doubt arri can do the same with the LF as it will sell in far les numbers.

"Sure thats possibly not how its done in hollywood. But doing it just like the big guys is not reslly being disruptive is it?"

ha, ha, he, he.

"So if they can ramp up the numbers and streamline the production with FOXCON its very likly monstro comes at a raven price quite soon" .

^^^ I was thinking that too, but almost didn't dare to think that...

Lately RED has been doing things I'd never in a million years predict.

 

[Zeb B]

If you want to see the future try djigo4. Fly, shot, edit, grade add graphics and music and uppload. All in 4k, all through your phone and quick and easy as hell. As I see it red has the best sensor on the planet with monstro, biggest leap forward so far. Then you add the ”media machine” to that abd you got posibilities to cloud rushes straight trough your phone, Live feeds, in camera editing etc. Sure thats possibly not how its done in hollywood. But doing it just like the big guys is not reslly being disruptive is it?

Also we all remember when push comes to show red has sliced prices in half before. A monstro most likly comes with high production costs involved. But its also proven that they can make Raven for far less. So if they can ramp up the numbers and streamline the production with FOXCON its very likly monstro comes at a raven price quite soon. I doubt arri can do the same with the LF as it will sell in far les numbers.

DJI is the black swan of cine. Their Hassy purchase will be interesting to see as it becomes a direct competitor of all existing big boy cameras. Camera movement and POV is one of the biggest challenges and can add significant cost to a shot. DJI is way ahead in this category with putting the sensor where you want it. If RED is looking to come out with a low cost, small form factor made in China 8K camera . . . can DJI be far behind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

 

[Eric Lange]

DJI is the black swan of cine. Their Hassy purchase will be interesting to see as it becomes a direct competitor of all existing big boy cameras. Camera movement and POV is one of the biggest challenges and can add significant cost to a shot. DJI is way ahead in this category with putting the sensor where you want it. If RED is looking to come out with a low cost, small form factor made in China 8K camera . . . can DJI be far behind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

Did DJI really purchase Hassy?

I thought they just had a stake/share in Hasselblad; you know just one wedge or piece of the pie?

Did they really buy Hasselblad lock stock and barrel?

 

[Zeb B]

This:
https://petapixel.com/2014/05/12/rumor-ventizz-capital-planning-pull-plug-hasselblad/

This:
https://petapixel.com/2017/01/05/dji-acquired-hasselblad-report/

Then this:
https://petapixel.com/2017/09/27/hasselblad-a6d-100c-monster-100mp-aerial-camera/

DJI is the Majority Stakeholder of Hassy - in other words, they have full access to the 70 years of IP and to the efforts of Hasselblad's 180 smart as fuck employees. Probably the deal of the century . . . pennies on the dollar

 

[Eric Lange]

This:
https://petapixel.com/2014/05/12/rumor-ventizz-capital-planning-pull-plug-hasselblad/

This:
https://petapixel.com/2017/01/05/dji-acquired-hasselblad-report/

Then this:
https://petapixel.com/2017/09/27/hasselblad-a6d-100c-monster-100mp-aerial-camera/

DJI is the Majority Stakeholder of Hassy - in other words, they have full access to the 70 years of IP and to the efforts of Hasselblad's 180 smart as fuck employees. Probably the deal of the century . . . pennies on the dollar

"Back in November 2015, the Chinese camera drone company DJI announced that it had acquired a minority stake in the legendary Swedish camera brand Hasselblad. The following July, the two companies teamed up to launch a monster $4,599 medium format drone. According to a new report, DJI has since acquired Hasselblad by becoming the majority owner? "

That's not officially confirmed... Yet. So when I see it I will believe it.

If you go to the Hasselblad website you can see photos of a big drone (if memory serves me right). {Maybe they took that down].

I'm familiar with their Aerial cameras and that's much more an "Airborne" instrument i.e. professional governmental type thing you would bolt onto a gyro stabilized platform poking out of the bottom / belly of an air craft.

Personally anyone that flies a $30K to $50K instrument on a five thousand dollar drone is a smidge reckless? Having said that I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the work done on Eagle Huntress flying an Epic... Those aerial shots are some of the BEST I have seen in my life.

As far as Medium Format goes every time I mention the Fuji GFX 50s Medium format mirror less camera it just goes "Thud"... (focal plane shutter). That camera is between $6K and $7k... Not my favorite formfactor by any means but still about $15K cheaper than its closest cousins as Medium Format Digital backs and we are not even talking about PhaseOne which is waaaaay more $.

As far Hasselblad and flying stuff on $5k drones its going to be completely different sensor than any of their formal aeriel cameras and if it shoots dynamic footage its going to look pretty darn amateur/binning, / choppy imagery.. But we'll see what they roll out.

Maybe what they are planning is more in line with their X1D camera?

 

[Thai Christen]

Personally anyone that flies a $30K to $50K instrument on a five thousand dollar drone is a smidge reckless?

Not if you have the knowledge of building your own drones.
With $5K you can basically buy all the parts to build a decent Octo that can fly Red/Mini. Then add about 3-5 days building, testing and adjusting.
I have been flyng Red/Mini packages in the $50K+ for the last 3 years with two identical $5K self-built drones without any issues.
The huge advantage over the off the shelf solution à la Freefly and DJI, if something goes wrong you are able to fix yourself. Or you can do any tweakings, adjustings to your liking.

 

[Eric Lange]

Not if you have the knowledge of building your own drones.
With $5K you can basically buy all the parts to build a decent Octo that can fly Red/Mini. Then add about 3-5 days building, testing and adjusting.
I have been flyng Red/Mini packages in the $50K+ for the last 3 years with two identical $5K self-built drones without any issues.
The huge advantage over the off the shelf solution à la Freefly and DJI, if something goes wrong you are able to fix yourself. Or you can do any tweakings, adjustings to your liking.

@Thai Christen I think you just sold me on that.

Normally for smaller drones I kinda feel like they are giant annoying mosquitos on steroids and when on a quiet country walk my instinct is to go whip out a shotgun and yell "PULL !!!".

However for the bigger drones and bigger shots the results are undeniably good.

For the past few years I go

Me: "How did they do that shot!!! All in one take !!! That's amazing !!!"

Wife: " Drone."

Me "Its so steady and smooth and high"..

Wife: "Drone".

Me: " But that had to be a crane shot then a spliced composite and then a helicopter... The pan and tilt is soooo smooothe !! ! while moving on an arc??? "

Wife: "Drone".

Me: " But ".. "jibber jabber , jabber blabber ... ???"

Wife: "It's a f*cking drone!!!".

Me: "..."... (quietly) . "Ohhhh kaaaaay .. . ."

I have to admit We have to do more with composites and have been wondering when I get bitten by the Drone "Bug". Kinda interested in possible variants with faster ground speed and a quieter rig.

Love the idea of building these things from components. Sounds awesome.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I guess "You guys " going on about "Cheaper Monstros" may be onto something... As one of the key criteria one would think is , is it cheap to crash.

I don't really consider a $75K to $120K Monstro VV based "Rig" cheap to crash.

But a future Foxconn RED machine might be? Or at least significantly more cheap to crash ?.