Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[David Peterson]

How are they not undercutting themselves? Remember Sony did the same thing to themselves... Granted some would say their cinema line wasn't doing well in the first place but when they released the FS7, not only did it kill the game, including there own, it went up in value. So why should I buy a Sony PMW-F5 over a FS7? C'mon ppl.

Same happened when the Sony F5 got 4K in a firmware upgrade, that pissed off many Sony F55 owners.

You can even go further back with the whole quick release of F23 => F35 => F3

This is just the nature of life, especially in the high tech world. Products quickly depreciate and get replaced by others.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Same happened when the Sony F5 got 4K in a firmware upgrade, that pissed off many Sony F55 owners.

You can even go further back with the whole quick release of F23 => F35 => F3

This is just the nature of life, especially in the high tech world. Products quickly depreciate and get replaced by others.

Except when it's Arri.

Which should make everyone pause before making investment decisions in terms of equipment.
Most companies have no one else to blame but themselves because of their short term marketing strategies.
If people continue to think that RED continues to get the short end of the stick, they should look no further than it's own product cycle to understand why.

I would not invest the same sum in a top tier RED product vs an Arri one for exactly this reason. End of story.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Except when it's Arri.

Which should make everyone pause before making investment decisions in terms of equipment.
Most companies have no one else to blame but themselves because of their short term marketing strategies.
If people continue to think that RED continues to get the short end of the stick, they should look no further than it's own product cycle to understand why.

I would not invest the same sum in a top tier RED product vs an Arri one for exactly this reason. End of story.

Yup, this is exactly why I proposed that Red should focus all their efforts into a single top tier camera that gets tested into absurdity so that it's the most reliable camera on the market with standard protocol features and a color science that looks like the standard every seasoned creative cinematographer and filmmaker are used to, 35mm. Arri wins most battles for narrative projects, that's a fact and they do it with a soon ten year old sensor technology. This is the reason I'm moving away from upgrading. I've gone from Scarlet to Weapon 6K MG but the way upgrades are handled now it's just a mess of different sensors, custom made cameras, bridging technology for Panavision and tech that gets obsolete faster than it reaches the hands of the customers (Weapon 6K was taken down from the store right after I got mine into usage). On top of that, most of the interesting side-gear is made from third party, which many times have problems with new firmwares or bugs that Red and the third party blames on each other.

It's just a big mess of a strategy that makes Red seem to have lost focus. Now with the focus on the Hydrogen and holographic content, the rumors of a 8K prosumer camera and so on, even me who's been a big fan of Red for ten years start to become tired. I've lost interest in upgrading, I've lost interest in the hype for new sensors, I'm tired of hearing how awesome everything is from überfans who seem to post more about their camera system than what they're actually using it for.

The bottom line of it all is that I feel Red lost touch with it's core ideals. It's a tech toy company for the rich more than a disrupting camera developer company. I remember the early days of Red, how disruptive it was, how special it was with their focus on making a camera for the filmmakers. How Peter Jacksons short film was truly fucking cool to watch in 4K and how the focus on one single camera felt structured and handled with care.

I feel that this passion for filmmaking as a core ideal at Red has been lost in favor of a quantity of gear to use, a bragging contest for the richest owner operators getting the top tier gear earlier than others, most projects shown are not movies anymore but questionably undressed models walking on a beach at sun set as a "test of the DR". Back in the early days, this place was all about what we could do with the camera, showing off short films, feature films, major studio films that were shot on it and so on. Early days, the "SHOT ON RED" section was filled with great discussions about projects people put up, now most people only get one or two replies on their projects put up.

Red loosing out more and more in the narrative filmmaking world, where almost everyone choose another camera for their project than Red creates a position where Red is only used for fashion, music videos and small scale projects. We've lost the real filmmaking talk, that core ideal of democratising the filmmaking world with low cost high quality gear that started the Red hype back in 2006/2007.

 

[Zeb B]

Yup, this is exactly why I proposed that Red should focus all their efforts into a single top tier camera that gets tested into absurdity so that it's the most reliable camera on the market with standard protocol features and a color science that looks like the standard every seasoned creative cinematographer and filmmaker are used to, 35mm. Arri wins most battles for narrative projects, that's a fact and they do it with a soon ten year old sensor technology. This is the reason I'm moving away from upgrading. I've gone from Scarlet to Weapon 6K MG but the way upgrades are handled now it's just a mess of different sensors, custom made cameras, bridging technology for Panavision and tech that gets obsolete faster than it reaches the hands of the customers (Weapon 6K was taken down from the store right after I got mine into usage). On top of that, most of the interesting side-gear is made from third party, which many times have problems with new firmwares or bugs that Red and the third party blames on each other.

It's just a big mess of a strategy that makes Red seem to have lost focus. Now with the focus on the Hydrogen and holographic content, the rumors of a 8K prosumer camera and so on, even me who's been a big fan of Red for ten years start to become tired. I've lost interest in upgrading, I've lost interest in the hype for new sensors, I'm tired of hearing how awesome everything is from überfans who seem to post more about their camera system than what they're actually using it for.

The bottom line of it all is that I feel Red lost touch with it's core ideals. It's a tech toy company for the rich more than a disrupting camera developer company. I remember the early days of Red, how disruptive it was, how special it was with their focus on making a camera for the filmmakers. How Peter Jacksons short film was truly fucking cool to watch in 4K and how the focus on one single camera felt structured and handled with care.

I feel that this passion for filmmaking as a core ideal at Red has been lost in favor of a quantity of gear to use, a bragging contest for the richest owner operators getting the top tier gear earlier than others, most projects shown are not movies anymore but questionably undressed models walking on a beach at sun set as a "test of the DR". Back in the early days, this place was all about what we could do with the camera, showing off short films, feature films, major studio films that were shot on it and so on. Early days, the "SHOT ON RED" section was filled with great discussions about projects people put up, now most people only get one or two replies on their projects put up.

Red loosing out more and more in the narrative filmmaking world, where almost everyone choose another camera for their project than Red creates a position where Red is only used for fashion, music videos and small scale projects. We've lost the real filmmaking talk, that core ideal of democratising the filmmaking world with low cost high quality gear that started the Red hype back in 2006/2007.

The problem with any feature driven product company is to know when to say "no". The well intended goal to be everything to everybody is a major challenge that is rarely successful. Ferrari doesn't have an entry level product. Tesla makes a single battery for home use. Southwest Airlines flies a single model of airplane.

If you ever watch the business turnaround TV shows, like for restaurants, the first thing they do is to take the menu entrée offerings from 50 items down to 8 and get back to what the Brand stands for at its core.

RED has tried to be inclusive and give an upgrade path for folks to grow up in the product line. Problem is, the 1-3-5 year road map isn't as clear as it once was and camera models come out of nowhere (Helium). Way too many variations and lack of clarity of purpose to stand for something definite that would give a sense of buyer confidence to drop $100K on a new product. A purchase of that scale takes years to amortize.

Then add the phone business to the mix. But then hey, that's the joy of owning and running a private company that doesn't have to answer to a Board or Stock Market

I think that restraint is not something that comes real natural from late night "wouldn't it be cool" meetings between JJ and JL ;-)

 

[Eric Lange]

Yup, this is exactly why I proposed that Red should focus all their efforts into a single top tier camera that gets tested into absurdity so that it's the most reliable camera on the market with standard protocol features and a color science that looks like the standard every seasoned creative cinematographer and filmmaker are used to, 35mm. Arri wins most battles for narrative projects, that's a fact and they do it with a soon ten year old sensor technology. This is the reason I'm moving away from upgrading. I've gone from Scarlet to Weapon 6K MG but the way upgrades are handled now it's just a mess of different sensors, custom made cameras, bridging technology for Panavision and tech that gets obsolete faster than it reaches the hands of the customers (Weapon 6K was taken down from the store right after I got mine into usage). On top of that, most of the interesting side-gear is made from third party, which many times have problems with new firmwares or bugs that Red and the third party blames on each other.

It's just a big mess of a strategy that makes Red seem to have lost focus. Now with the focus on the Hydrogen and holographic content, the rumors of a 8K prosumer camera and so on, even me who's been a big fan of Red for ten years start to become tired. I've lost interest in upgrading, I've lost interest in the hype for new sensors, I'm tired of hearing how awesome everything is from überfans who seem to post more about their camera system than what they're actually using it for.

The bottom line of it all is that I feel Red lost touch with it's core ideals. It's a tech toy company for the rich more than a disrupting camera developer company. I remember the early days of Red, how disruptive it was, how special it was with their focus on making a camera for the filmmakers. How Peter Jacksons short film was truly fucking cool to watch in 4K and how the focus on one single camera felt structured and handled with care.

I feel that this passion for filmmaking as a core ideal at Red has been lost in favor of a quantity of gear to use, a bragging contest for the richest owner operators getting the top tier gear earlier than others, most projects shown are not movies anymore but questionably undressed models walking on a beach at sun set as a "test of the DR". Back in the early days, this place was all about what we could do with the camera, showing off short films, feature films, major studio films that were shot on it and so on. Early days, the "SHOT ON RED" section was filled with great discussions about projects people put up, now most people only get one or two replies on their projects put up.

Red loosing out more and more in the narrative filmmaking world, where almost everyone choose another camera for their project than Red creates a position where Red is only used for fashion, music videos and small scale projects. We've lost the real filmmaking talk, that core ideal of democratising the filmmaking world with low cost high quality gear that started the Red hype back in 2006/2007.

Yup, this is exactly why I proposed that Red should focus all their efforts into a single top tier camera that gets tested into absurdity so that it's the most reliable camera on the market with standard protocol features

Just out of interest, what would the basic specs be for such a camera and what would it's price point be?

 

[Zeb B]

Just out of interest, what would the basic specs be for such a camera and what would it's price point be?

https://dxl.panavision.com/

 

[Eric Lange]

https://dxl.panavision.com/

It's hard not to look at that and not get chills / goose bumps down one's spine.... In a good way

Looking at that does make one feel that American Digital Cinematography is in good hands.
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So how did we get from Terry Gou/Foxconn and possibly large scale manufacture of the HYDROGEN "Sandwich" (i.e. 1/3rd of a RAVEN in terms of $ and dimensions) to how much money ARRI had to borrow to pull the 65 out of the hat at considerable risk (still not known when they break even on that)... A camera that you can't buy and probably rental houses are balls deep into financing with?

A general point, I think what people vastly underestimate is how small the film industry really is especially compared to the exposure and profile it receives and self generates; (naturally by its intrinsic nature).

 

[Zeb B]

It's hard not to look at that and not get chills / goose bumps down one's spine.... In a good way

Pretty much checks the box for JJ for conquering the movie industry - which explains the desire to move onto the phone business

 

[Christoffer Glans]

https://dxl.panavision.com/

Yup, exactly... the camera that would have been a serious threat to Alexa would have been if Red did something like the DXL but under the Red brand, but they gave that to Panavision and locked into rental.

Pretty much checks the box for JJ for conquering the movie industry - which explains the desire to move onto the phone business

Nothing has been conquered, the Panavision is locked into rentals and the Alexa LF will be used much more. The DXL isn't even under the Red brand so Red doesn't get enough cred for it, meaning in people's mind, if the DXL gets used more and more, it's only gonna benefit Panavision as a brand.

 

[Phil Holland]

Yup, exactly... the camera that would have been a serious threat to Alexa would have been if Red did something like the DXL but under the Red brand, but they gave that to Panavision and locked into rental.

https://dxl.panavision.com/

A question as this particular topic is interesting to me.

RED demonstrated "Ranger" cameras, which were/are like smaller versions of a DXL to some extent. But in terms of just general features what are you looking for that a DXL can do that a stock say Weapon Monstro body cannot?

I say this as wireless video module is about to drop this year and a few other things.

Also, what feature do you feel are missing on say a Weapon camera overall?

Just curious.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Same happened when the Sony F5 got 4K in a firmware upgrade, that pissed off many Sony F55 owners.

You can even go further back with the whole quick release of F23 => F35 => F3

This is just the nature of life, especially in the high tech world. Products quickly depreciate and get replaced by others.

Sony F5 and F55 are both professional production cameras and 4K is just a resolution while other features differentiate them.
F23 and F35 were high end cameras in the early times digital cinema.
F3 is in a completely different segment and not progression from F35.

Undercutting is typically an auto-goal.

 

[Eric Lange]

A question as this particular topic is interesting to me.

RED demonstrated "Ranger" cameras, which were/are like smaller versions of a DXL to some extent. But in terms of just general features what are you looking for that a DXL can do that a stock say Weapon Monstro body cannot?

I say this as wireless video module is about to drop this year and a few other things.

Also, what feature do you feel are missing on say a Weapon camera overall?

Just curious.

I was getting that "Vibe" too, like this guy doesn't like weapon or Helium or something (for some reason)?

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The fact that there is an American camera manufacturer at all seems like an incredible achievement (if you look at the history of photography and cinematography)... I don't look at Panavision's new cameras without thinking RED and I think what would they have done without RED?

OT: Our requirements a re very different from most (right now) and for researching more advanced techniques you need cameras that one can purchase as we have to engineer and re-engineer / butcher things in ways that a rental house would never in a million years allow lol (overall much more cost effective). The fact that such systems from RED are accessible IS remarkable and the forward thinking gaps they seem minded to close for the near future also seem equally remarkable. I'm happy that RED has the opportunity to play whatever game they want or need and still be able to keep playing the game twenty years from now. That's key IMO.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

A question as this particular topic is interesting to me.

RED demonstrated "Ranger" cameras, which were/are like smaller versions of a DXL to some extent. But in terms of just general features what are you looking for that a DXL can do that a stock say Weapon Monstro body cannot?

I say this as wireless video module is about to drop this year and a few other things.

Also, what feature do you feel are missing on say a Weapon camera overall?

Just curious.

In my opinion it's not about specific features, it's the general philosophy of the camera. The DXL is made to be a reliable studio camera without conflicting gear and a list of small inconvenient problems. It's the "out of the box" camera that makes a lot of people choose Arri over Red. It also features better color science that focus more on giving a 35mm look rather than "accuracy", which is exactly what Alexa does with their color science.

But with the philosophy I'm also speaking about the philosophy and ideals that feels much closer to what Red was back in the Red One and Epic days, when the focus was on one single system that gets all the focus. Modularity was minor and it was all about making the camera as good as possible for narrative filmmaking. I feel that the focus now seems to be moving away from the narrative scene and leaving that to Arri. Only real focus has been on Netflix productions because Red had it's resolution advantage over Arri in that field. Unfortunately with the LF, I feel that most productions will move over to Arri now.

I don't really know what Red is anymore. If Fincher and Michael bay chose something else there wouldn't be a lot of high profiles left showing off Red as a choice for narrative filmmaking. Is Red supposed to be the "drone camera" or the owner operator camera for those doing commercials, music videos or fashion shoots? Where's the narrative filmmaking focus that once dominated the Red arena? Looking at the "shot on red" section over at red.com, it just feels desperate, with the few high profile shows and films pushed to the top and a lot of others put in there just because of some backgrounds shots for green screen, VFX or drone shots were used, which isn't at all the same as an entire film or show being shot on Red.

Red has started to feel like a tech conference where the focus is on shiny new cool stuff to add to your existing gear. There's a new sensor, a new module, a new something over and over and each time the philosophy and vision gets mudded and fragmented into just being a pile of high cost equipment rather than a choice for narrative filmmakers.

This lack of vision has made me stop thinking about upgrading. The reasons to do it now feels rather empty. You get essentially the same as before, slightly improved aspects, but nothing radical and focused or the single best new addition to the filmmaking industry as a big mile stone reveal. The Monstro isn't the same milestone as Epic was, Dragon was or Red Once was. It's a small step forward, regardless of how technically advanced everyone tries to argue it is. Few cared about the reveal of Monstro, it was met with minor attention, while the reveal of the Alexa LF went bonkers throughout the industry.

New modules, new additions, new sensors that are slightly better but not radical steps forward hurts Red more than gain in my opinion. It might generate more income, but it's killing the Red brand's status in narrative filmmaking. If the DXL, with it's color science and it's focus on being a robust out of the box system, would have been sold as the top tier system through Red, that would be what the narrative film industry wants. The Alexa LF is exactly what people wants and everyone should look to why that is, because it has nothing to do with resolution, base ISO or improved colors of say, the monstro.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I was getting that "Vibe" too, like this guy doesn't like weapon or Helium or something (for some reason)?

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The fact that there is an American camera manufacturer at all seems like an incredible achievement (if you look at the history of photography and cinematography)... I don't look at Panavision's new cameras without thinking RED and I think what would they have done without RED?

OT: Our requirements a re very different from most (right now) and for researching more advanced techniques you need cameras that one can purchase as we have to engineer and re-engineer / butcher things in ways that a rental house would never in a million years allow lol. The fact that such systems from RED are accessible IS remarkable and forward thinking gaps they seem to want to close for the near future also seem equally remarkable. I'm happy that RED has to opportunity to play whatever game they want, and still be able to keep playing the game twenty years from now.

The camera is more than the Red sensor and R3D file format and one of the only reasons Red has been used so much for narrative filmmaking is because Netflix put the acquisition limit at 4K, excluding Arri. The limit for them is now gone because of the LF. So is Red gonna be a system for small stuff, drones, commercials and music videos and the narrative arena, that was the base for the philosophy behind the Red One, will be abandoned? I get no narrative jobs with my Weapon, only smaller owner operator stuff, almost every production in Sweden use Arri cameras and those who don't have done so because there are a few of us trying to push our Red cameras into the system. If this is how it's gonna be and more so now with the LF, how do you think things will look 20 years from now?

 

[M Most]

The fact that there is an American camera manufacturer at all seems like an incredible achievement (if you look at the history of photography and cinematography)....

Really? Have you never heard of Kodak? Or Polaroid? Or Vision Research? Or Panavision? Or Technicolor?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It also features better color science that focus more on giving a 35mm look rather than "accuracy", which is exactly what Alexa does with their color science.

What you perceive as "better" is caused by both more accurate and less accurate image parameters.
It is not "either/or".

 

[Eric Lange]

Really? Have you never heard of Kodak? Or Polaroid? Or Vision Research? Or Panavision? Or Technicolor?

Yes I have ... I have professionally worked with some of them...

So Kodak digital division pretty much tanked (I know some X employees that set up different companies for example LEAF in Israel (now part of Team PhaseOne with Mamiya )).

That's my point over the past 60 years Japanese and German offerings pretty much killed the American manufactured cameras and lenses on mass. And it's not like US engineering and technology is any worse than Japanese or German engineering (I'll leave the Swiss out of that ;-) ).

Right?

[I think you got the wrong end of the stick to what was meant (in this instance), but at least afforded me the opportunity to clarify the point I was trying to make (thanks for that) as I was wondering whether what I had written in the first instance was ambiguous or not.. Apparently it was. ].

 

[Phil Holland]

the general philosophy of the camera

Just some thoughts as I'm close to a few of these fires. Take them or leave them.

You have access to the very same general tech and even more film-like "color science". In fact they work with the DXL as well, but I won't sell my soul fully. The biggest advantage the DXL has for me at the moment is PV's rather good OLPF solution. Though until I can spend about 3 days getting deep into it and comparing it to RED's and custom solutions, it's a bit of an ethereal difference.

In the RED ecosystem they didn't make you buy a full size body and a mini body, they made a body style that could be both if you'd like them to be.

I'm not exactly with you about "killing RED narratively". They are still being used everywhere on "everything".

In terms of Monstro you're getting a full stop more DR than anything else RED has released to date with better/more color. While not the BIG leap from say Mysterium-X to Dragon's color and dynamic range, it's noticeable. It is a pretty big leap however bringing 8K VV as a format to the masses however while maintaining some semblance of film format resolution relevance.

I can tell you that in rental houses out here, big ones and including PV, Monstro is "out there" now. The Alexa LF announcement indeed was big, but also big marketed and covered, as well as controversial for many rental houses as it's left them scratching their heads on a few key points. I consult and deal with a great deal of folks on a global level. Arri's brand name and presence runs very deep and there's even a staggered awareness of it as newer markets embrace what might be considered high end. Dealing with a client in Vietnam who literally only purchases gear based on brand names alone, which is his prerogative. Their market and "our" market are about 5-10 years apart in terms of "where they are". Similar to my workshop trips in 2013 and 2014 where so many were still working on *gasp* tape.

One thing I think that needs to be acknowledged by the LF in general is Arri themselves acknowledging that sub-4K wasn't the right way nor good enough for some of the leading edge distribution methods and workflows. This isn't a shocker as prior to Alexa Arri had a lot to say about 4K, and though the OG Alexa had more of a resolution relevance to say Academy 35, they knew from the get go 4K was a thing with their film scanning and recording background as well as the now defunct 4K camera that was targeted for 2011.


Just to note about the general ecosystem and perhaps where the mindset is most different between team blue (Arri) and team RED, one is very much on the page of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and the other is pushing motion picture technology forward to adapt to the changing landscape of capture, delivery, and experience.

RED's biggest uphill battle was getting into the feature world and being utilized by some of the biggest and most discerning professionals, which they did, and if there was something "better" on that front I would personally be using it. On a sales basis don't know if they are "worried" about Arri for a variety of reasons. It appears to me that the actual competition is/was Sony all along as they did have a 4K digital cinema camera on their mid-2000s roadmap very long ago to be released in, if I recall correctly, 2015. We are very past all of that in terms of technology and where everybody is now.

As RED has grown as a company it's clear they are diversifying both in the range of digital cinema camera products they provide now at various tiers, but also now reaching out into new markets with technology like the Hydrogen One (and likely other things to come). I'm cool with branching out. I'm even cool with the announcement to help push 8K capture and delivery (and 4K delivery too) to a broader audience. In some ways this is discruptive in the same way the RED One was, though we need to see how whatever these cameras and technologies are actually manifest into reality. People seem both excited by this announcement, but also scared that it's harming the brand or competing against RED's own tech, but the reality is Panasonic, Sony, Canon, etc.... are all going to provide 8K solutions at different tiers. RED in my mind made 8K viable for general production first (yes I know NHK and broadcast, but we are using those cameras for typical day in/day out filming, nor do we want to). I think what is clear is that they want to be the stewards of pushing 8K into the hands of a broader audience and advancing the tech forward ahead of the competition, which is much of what I actually observe through all of this.

 

[Eric Lange]

The camera is more than the Red sensor and R3D file format and one of the only reasons Red has been used so much for narrative filmmaking is because Netflix put the acquisition limit at 4K, excluding Arri. The limit for them is now gone because of the LF. So is Red gonna be a system for small stuff, drones, commercials and music videos and the narrative arena, that was the base for the philosophy behind the Red One, will be abandoned? I get no narrative jobs with my Weapon, only smaller owner operator stuff, almost every production in Sweden use Arri cameras and those who don't have done so because there are a few of us trying to push our Red cameras into the system. If this is how it's gonna be and more so now with the LF, how do you think things will look 20 years from now?

I think that's a more direct answer... (I appreciate that) and also not for nothing your English is excellent and you have taken the time to express yourself really well.

Cuz I was thinking what's Christoffer's bag here ? As it almost sounds like (for a minute) that you are somehow humiliated that some directors choose Arri over RED, and there's an associated value to that.

In terms of independent film making (as you know) requires independent thinking, so I'm not so bothered about what other people choose so much as to rather what I/we need for specific projects and applications.

I think you have to bear in mind these things also go in and out of fashion.

It's interesting to me that your footer / tag line says "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room." Like you don't want to own a dark room any more.

I can understand why in Sweden perhaps that folks would choose to push the ARRI button.

On a personal note, I have to admit I'm more of a digital purist, and that I have this demented idea that Digital Cinematography (softcopy acquisition) is DIGITAL... And if you really want a film look shoot film, sure it has the snot scanned out of it... Although 4k master for 2001 Space Odyssey seemed a smidge inadequate to me but what do I know lol? ).

20 years from now ..? I'll come back to that in a Mo' as I pull my crystal ball out (lol).

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@Christoffer what is it that what would prevent you from purchasing a Arri LF (when the time comes) ?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yup, this is exactly why I proposed that Red should focus all their efforts into a single top tier camera that gets tested into absurdity so that it's the most reliable camera on the market with standard protocol features and a color science that looks like the standard every seasoned creative cinematographer and filmmaker are used to, 35mm. Arri wins most battles for narrative projects, that's a fact and they do it with a soon ten year old sensor technology. This is the reason I'm moving away from upgrading. I've gone from Scarlet to Weapon 6K MG but the way upgrades are handled now it's just a mess of different sensors, custom made cameras, bridging technology for Panavision and tech that gets obsolete faster than it reaches the hands of the customers (Weapon 6K was taken down from the store right after I got mine into usage). On top of that, most of the interesting side-gear is made from third party, which many times have problems with new firmwares or bugs that Red and the third party blames on each other.

It's just a big mess of a strategy that makes Red seem to have lost focus. Now with the focus on the Hydrogen and holographic content, the rumors of a 8K prosumer camera and so on, even me who's been a big fan of Red for ten years start to become tired. I've lost interest in upgrading, I've lost interest in the hype for new sensors, I'm tired of hearing how awesome everything is from überfans who seem to post more about their camera system than what they're actually using it for.

The bottom line of it all is that I feel Red lost touch with it's core ideals. It's a tech toy company for the rich more than a disrupting camera developer company. I remember the early days of Red, how disruptive it was, how special it was with their focus on making a camera for the filmmakers. How Peter Jacksons short film was truly fucking cool to watch in 4K and how the focus on one single camera felt structured and handled with care.

I feel that this passion for filmmaking as a core ideal at Red has been lost in favor of a quantity of gear to use, a bragging contest for the richest owner operators getting the top tier gear earlier than others, most projects shown are not movies anymore but questionably undressed models walking on a beach at sun set as a "test of the DR". Back in the early days, this place was all about what we could do with the camera, showing off short films, feature films, major studio films that were shot on it and so on. Early days, the "SHOT ON RED" section was filled with great discussions about projects people put up, now most people only get one or two replies on their projects put up.

Red loosing out more and more in the narrative filmmaking world, where almost everyone choose another camera for their project than Red creates a position where Red is only used for fashion, music videos and small scale projects. We've lost the real filmmaking talk, that core ideal of democratising the filmmaking world with low cost high quality gear that started the Red hype back in 2006/2007.

Except it really wasn't low-cost. It could have been $5k-$10k, instead they made your money quick. But that is how to goes.

Now Christoffer, you have to admit, prior to the Dragon sensor those sensors really weren't.the greatest, and suffered before Arri, and that helium had been the first to completely get there.