Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[Dan Kanes]

What $ Premium for 8K footage ?

“No one” wants 8K right now.

My Monstro hasn’t rented once (except when I want to use it on a job.)

Naturally this will change - but there is ZERO rental advantage today in Los Angeles to have a Helium or Monstro over any other camera that I’m able to Perceive of at all.

Period.

Now, things change, they can, will and Do change.

Right now in my (little) world there’s very little (factually near zero as of today) economic advantage to owning as an operator or renting out as an individual any of the 8K camera options.

If you’re a good camera person you’ll get called to shoot something. Otherwise it’s a world of lowest common cost for an owner operator to flop around at the behest of someone who knows even less about the factualities of the world as it used to exist or currently does.

The reality is, this is a very early shot off the Bow, and may be a potential direct hit to the starboard side of other dominant, primarily Japanese based camera Manufacturers. Really depends though. These are just smoke signals of impending product cycle collapse and expansion.

 

[Eric Lange]

What $ Premium for 8K footage ?

“No one” wants 8K right now.

My Monstro hasn’t rented once (except when I want to use it on a job.)

Naturally this will change - but there is ZERO rental advantage today in Los Angeles to have a Helium or Monstro over any other camera that I’m able to Perceive of at all.

Period.

Now, things change, they can, will and Do change.

Right now in my (little) world there’s very little (factually near zero as of today) economic advantage to owning as an operator or renting out as an individual any of the 8K camera options.

If you’re a good camera person you’ll get called to shoot something. Otherwise it’s a world of lowest common cost for an owner operator to flop around at the behest of someone who knows even less about the factualities of the world as it used to exist or currently does.

The reality is, this is a very early shot off the Bow, and may be a potential direct hit to the starboard side of other dominant, primarily Japanese based camera Manufacturers. Really depends though. These are just smoke signals of impending product cycle collapse and expansion.

The reality is, this is a very early shot off the Bow, and may be a potential direct hit to the starboard side of other dominant, primarily Japanese based camera Manufacturers. Really depends though. These are just smoke signals of impending product cycle collapse and expansion.

^^^I'm glad you said that as I was about say about what you wrote originally ... Hmmm Doesn't this all have a very familiar "Ring" about this like hasn't this all happened before (in earlier incarnations).

So will things contract back to a 6K (photo sites)/ crop / format for a more general standard for the next 15 years (for professional use)... Will this then become fossilized/entrenched? Apart from Panavision.

So it will be 8k for amateurs and 6k for professional studio use that crosses over for TV/Netflix/"Film" / 'Cinema". But the signal processing, workflow and build quality and durability will be far superior to 8K+ amateur systems. On the other hand technical and VFX cameras for higher spatial precision and dynamic range are needed.

[Not saying that RED 8K anything is "Amateur" but on the other hand an amateur is someone who does something for the LOVE of what they do rather than having to make their living that way... And maybe "They" if they are lucky, they don't become too cynical turning their passion into a profession. Ha ha/lol ... Compare that to the kid that makes like $4m a year (or something ridiculous), to just unbox new Disney toys on YouTube lol (I wonder what they are shooting on)... The future is definitely going to be harder to imagine and predict than anyone can predict or image (mild chortle/ha ha) . ].

I think/feel the Mostro VV lets folks dream a bit and experiment with stuff while cranking out more mundane/functional commercial work + offers some serious technical capability when needed, (perhaps). I don't think anyone buys a Monstro VV if they don't have a passion for the format or capability regardless of things that seemingly don't make sense for 100% "Crank it out" commercial work.
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@Dan are you saying NOW is a good time to rent a Monstro BTW The Atlas lenses look really interesting.

 

[C. Burkhart]

This is really about RED entering the cell phone market, not about Foxconn entering the camera manufacturing business.
Today's camera for the masses is not really a camera at all.
My guess is that what people will really get is an expensive cell that shoots 8K video.

So don't get your hopes up.

 

[Eric Lange]

This is really about RED entering the cell phone market, not about Foxconn entering the camera manufacturing business.
Today's camera for the masses is not really a camera at all.
My guess is that what people will really get is an expensive cell that shoots 8K video.

So don't get your hopes up.

I don't dispute any sentiment you set out here.

My HOPES hinge more on larger sensors and alternate form factors coming from RED in the next couple of years. Nicely engineered from a more 'Hard" engineering perspective .


RE: the article. https://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Nikk...i-Asian-Review

The head of Foxconn (Terry Gou) (assuming the quotes are real).... is not innumerate and possibly means what he says?

So pulling this apart:

"We will make cameras that will shoot professional-quality films in 8K resolution but at only a third of current prices and a third of current camera sizes," Foxconn Chairman Terry Gou told reporters in Taipei following the company's annual employee party before the Chinese New Year. 8K ultra-high definition resolution has become the benchmark standard for digital television and cinematography."



So Terry Gou is not talking about Hydrogen Modules nor Hydrogen. He is talking about a camera that is 1/3rd the price of a RED camera ... But RED has cameras that are (base price for (8k) , $30K, $50K and $80K).

Given that Gou's stated goal is to manufacture 8K sensors far more cheaply now that they have acquired the Sharp semiconductor plant and related expansions in the USA and India and elsewhere in China.

So specifically HYDROGEN is not mentioned nor is holographic 3d technology?


So if you divide a RED brain by a third (in terms of dimensions) and divide the price by a 1/3rd you don't get a HYDROGEN module YKWIM? As a HYDROGEN module is most likely cheaper than $10K and is also a lot thinner than 1/3rd the dimensions of a standard RED DSMC2 'Brain".

Maybe the cameras Terry Gou wants to build may have something to do with the LEIA tech and 3d acquisition... (Maybe that's just wishful thinking).

Also don't forget the Chinese market is most likely different from Europe or even the USA. And there is the possibility of cameras ONLY for the Chinese market? I know this is all highly speculative... But really interesting as to what Terry Gou actually said versus how "We" have been jumping up and down on things?

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The whole things is odd as Gou is reportedly talking to multiple reporters in the above article... So it is a bit like a press release.? ??? ?

 

[Zeb B]

This is really about RED entering the cell phone market, not about Foxconn entering the camera manufacturing business.
Today's camera for the masses is not really a camera at all.
My guess is that what people will really get is an expensive cell that shoots 8K video.

So don't get your hopes up.

Not how I read the article. Seems like a full on camera.

 

[Zeb B]

What $ Premium for 8K footage ?

“No one” wants 8K right now.

My Monstro hasn’t rented once (except when I want to use it on a job.)

Naturally this will change - but there is ZERO rental advantage today in Los Angeles to have a Helium or Monstro over any other camera that I’m able to Perceive of at all.

Period.

Now, things change, they can, will and Do change.

Right now in my (little) world there’s very little (factually near zero as of today) economic advantage to owning as an operator or renting out as an individual any of the 8K camera options.

If you’re a good camera person you’ll get called to shoot something. Otherwise it’s a world of lowest common cost for an owner operator to flop around at the behest of someone who knows even less about the factualities of the world as it used to exist or currently does.

The reality is, this is a very early shot off the Bow, and may be a potential direct hit to the starboard side of other dominant, primarily Japanese based camera Manufacturers. Really depends though. These are just smoke signals of impending product cycle collapse and expansion.

Interesting. Guess I was thinking more of what Clark and Phil have been doing over the last couple years with collecting 8K footie for Stock etc

 

[Zeb B]

Imma thinking Eric has a balanced view of things

 

[Eric Lange]

Not how I read the article. Seems like a full on camera.

+1

As that is exactly what is specified/quoted.

The other thing that's funny or odd if the press release was total BS then RED themselves would immediately dispute what was said and shut it all down immediately.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Not how I read the article. Seems like a full on camera.

Competition for the main line ?
No way.

So.
Either it is a low cost camera which doesnt come even close to what people need here.
So pointless for the pros here to get too excited.
Or, a far more expensive camera than what most people think of as "affordable".

Or, it is the everyman cam.

Think about it. Red already tested Apple and the consumer market with the Raven.
It seems clear to me that Jannard would love nothing more than to be the next Steve Jobs.

What is the everyman cam of today ? The telephone.
Hydrogen wasn't developed without a long term strategy.
It is even modular.

This is the next step for it.

One thing I would not hold my breath for is a rectangular box with XLR's at the back.
That's for sure.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Hmmm... I guess I am always will to take someone at their word until I find evidence they aren't being truthful. In this case, I can't imagine this guy would make a public statement about talking with RED if it were an outright lie; he'd have to know he'd be found out. We'll see... sounds intriguing.

That guy who is quoted in the article is Terry Gou, Chairman of Foxconn. He is courted by various Governments to open factory in their countries and states. You won't hear BS from him. He doesn't gain anything by namesdropping RED.

By the way Foxconn had invested in GoPro and I guess investment is sinking.

Interestingly, about five six years ago Jim was vocal about lack of IP protection in china. So tying up with a Taiwanese company with major presence in China looks like a big change. RED is also evolving in different directions. Future looks exciting.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I'm going to take a wild guess here that you have likely never talked to any of the tech people at Netflix, or the production or management people for that matter. Because if you had, you wouldn't be making such statements.

Making assumptions that people who run entities that have very significant skin in the game - to the tune of billions of dollars committed - don't care about what they are creating or how they are creating it is at best naive, and at worst just plain wrong.

Strawman, Mike.

Netflix in particular has done research and collected data beyond what anyone here suspects and come up with conclusions based on a deeper understanding of the business, at least from their perspective, than most people here know. You may not like some of what they have come up with. But don't ever confuse that with ignorance, lack of interest, lack of business acumen, or lack of understanding of current and future trends. Because you would be doing so at your own peril.

Mike, you have commented at two different quotes and treated them as one. They were separated for a reason.

First quote = Netflix related

Second quote = refers to the imaginary client approaching me with a resolution request out of the blue

I don't have a problem with understanding business decisions.
If Reason was running things image acquisition choices would be left to the production and DoP, what works best for them in workflow and aesthetic factors.
Not to "left brain dominant" with heads buried in sterile data analysis and dictating matters of aesthetic to others more developed in that department. And yes it is ignorance and arrogance as well and no, they haven't done enough research or they have just ignored things due to different priorities. I understand their priorities and the reasons for them. One who pays gets to decide some things which go in accordance with own priorities. That is clear. But one who pays does not know it all, nor his priorities should be automatically used as a reference for all, nor his scope of experience as authority on every matter.

a) Image acuity is an aesthetic, aesthetic defines the look of content, some type of content is crippled with too much acuity.
b) Pixel size/count affects camera image properties like DR distribution and saturation performance. Technology evolves and that may stop being a limitation but right now that still is a key factor.
c) 3K is about the acuity of 35mm film (scene acuity not texture acuity) and those throwing away that option due to fixation on numbers and their business roadmaps are effectively killing that aesthetic and uniforming the texture-determined part of a content's look. I.e. limiting the visual aesthetic in times where it can blossom in most creative ways ever in the history of image acquisition.

Factor under b) is temporary and transitive, other two are not and if ignored lead to reduced creative palette. Right now we have the most chosen high-level production camera shooting 3K and for those experts it is not good enough. S16 film is by acuity factor alone also not good enough, which is indirectly demotivating for the storytellers for being chosen as a valid storytelling tool. I'm sure these experts know better because of their data analysis, therefore everyone should shut up and blindly follow.

 

[Zeb B]

Competition for the main line ?
No way.

So.
Either it is a low cost camera which doesnt come even close to what people need here.
So pointless for the pros here to get too excited.
Or, a far more expensive camera than what most people think of as "affordable".

Or, it is the everyman cam.

Think about it. Red already tested Apple and the consumer market with the Raven.
It seems clear to me that Jannard would love nothing more than to be the next Steve Jobs.

What is the everyman cam of today ? The telephone.
Hydrogen wasn't developed without a long term strategy.
It is even modular.

This is the next step for it.

One thing I would not hold my breath for is a rectangular box with XLR's at the back.
That's for sure.

They currently shoot bits of Features and big budget TVC on GoPro, Drones and cell phones so I'm not sure how a fully capable RED 8K camera would not have any affect on cameras Raven thru EpicW and perhaps beyond. Like a new age Robert Rodriguez couldn't make it work to shoot a full scale feature?

I wonder what percentage of RED's current total published work is high profile Features and big budget TVC's? I'm guessing it less 10% . . . with no science behind that other than observation. When you add up Music Vids, Artsy Shorts (like 1M Vimeo vids), Indie Festival Bait, Local TVC, Website Content, Real Estate and Cat Videos . . . I'll bet that makes up a very large percentage of what's actually shot on RED. An 8K$8K would explode that work making the Raven - EpicW kinda way less relevant. It would probably be a very capable 4K camera with inexpensive media

 

[Zeb B]

Strawman, Mike.

You might want to actually look up the meaning of your favorite phrase there Hrvoje ;-)

 

[Eric Lange]

What's a 1/3rd of a RAVEN?

What's a 1/3rd of a RAVEN?

So the article supplied the number $30K...

BUT Terry Gou may have been thinking RAVEN,

Raven @ $14k /3 = $4667.00 -ish

So if sandwich 3 modules together, like battery pack, Helium module and HYDROGEN base ... Then that would mathematically "Fit" and would also fit the notion of something that is a third the size of a RED DSMC "Brain".

I'm sure there would be ways to "Bling-out" a HYDROGEN sandwich to a pretty impressive rig that could easily reach $10K if you wanted to (not including lenses).

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^^^If you pull the $30K from the article as being erroneous then perhaps more pieces of the puzzle fit, you know smashing them in there with your fist you get Constable's "The Haywaine" ... Naaaaaaaaah (shaking head) lol.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

You might want to actually look up the meaning of your favorite phrase there Hrvoje ;-)

There ya go, Zeb:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Eric Lange]

That guy who is quoted in the article is Terry Gou, Chairman of Foxconn. He is courted by various Governments to open factory in their countries and states. You won't hear BS from him. He doesn't gain anything by namesdropping RED.

By the way Foxconn had invested in GoPro and I guess investment is sinking.

Interestingly, about five six years ago Jim was vocal about lack of IP protection in china. So tying up with a Taiwanese company with major presence in China looks like a big change. RED is also evolving in different directions. Future looks exciting.

I went several times to the Paul Allen "Start Up" exhibit*, and at the end it says something like "If you want to predict the future then be the one that makes the future..." ...

I say if you want to predict the future then pick the most ironic outcome that you can possibly think off.

I believe (I'm not in the loop) that originally that some if not a lot of the RED sensors are made in Taiwan and possibly by said semiconductor factory formerly owned by Sharp and now having been acquired by Foxconn (in 2016). A lot of the front end ASIC processors and other bits and pieces are made by Foxconn that go into RED cameras.

Taiwan obviously is very different from PRC, but politically from the Chinese perspective Taiwan is "China" but going against that idea seems to trigger the high priority directive to acquire Taiwan (eventually). Taiwan does great things.

I'm impressed as hell that Jim Jannard and Jarred Land and Team RED were able to make Terry Gou and Foxconn an offer and a deal (if that's true?????), that was more attractive than what's going down with Apple these days (it seems). The RED name and Chinese New Year all seem very auspicious. Also I think there is certain amount of prestige for working with RED. Chinese production companies are an increasingly important component of international collaborative movie projects "Ghost in the Sell 2017" comes to mind.

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*Paul Allen took the Start Up exhibit lock stock and barrel out of its Albuquerque New Mexico (Natural History Museum location). I guess he thought those tumble weed chasing atom smashing breaking badders didn't deserve it anymore... It's a really great exhibit for the history of personal computing wherever it is now (I'm guessing somewhere in Seattle lol/not far from Space Needle?).

 

[Zeb B]

There ya go, Zeb:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Yeah, I know. It's you generous use of the term you might want to do a brake check on ;-)

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Sure.
When people stop replacing my words with what they've interpreted and debating me over the latter, I look forward to stop using the term referring to that error in logic and having a more fruitful discussion. I'm constantly working on my side in improving clarity in formulations in the non-native language so that can be reduced. If we get over ourselves we can use the potential of the global forum and its interaction to grow. If not, tunnel vision and resulting running in circles are unavoidable.

 

[M Most]

If Reason was running things image acquisition choices would be left to the production and DoP, not "left brain dominant" with heads buried in data analysis and dictating matters of aesthetic to others more developed in that department. And yes it is ignorance and no, they haven't done enough research or they have just ignored things due to different priorities. I understand their priorities and don't care, nor they are above all.

It isn't left to the production because the production isn't going to own the resulting asset in perpetuity. Netflix is. Their decision is based not just on current displays, current audience, current methods of delivery, and ultimately current value, but on other things known and unknown. As the entity that owns it, they are entitled to fulfill their anticipated needs, within reason. And yes, when it's their money, they ARE above all.

Image acuity...Pixel size/count.... 3K is about the acuity of 35mm film...]limiting the visual aesthetic... temporary and transitive, other two are not and if ignored lead to reduced creative palette...valid storytelling tool...

If you have a project that you're making for Netflix, with Netflix's backing and Netflix as the ultimate owner, you can talk to them about specific needs and using "non-approved" tools for specific scenes and specific reasons. As I said before, I sense that you have never really dealt with them, and yet you're coming on here calling them ignorant and somehow against creativity. You're expressing a lot of anger and fear for a company that's helping to make some of the most creative and original material out there. But whatever. Believe what you want to believe.

 

[Zeb B]

In case anybody wondering, there will be a huge push for 8K acquisition before 2020 for this little event (2016 article):

https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/26/12656286/8k-tv-broadcasts-2020-olympics-sony-panasonic

Thinking it's a Japanese National Pride driven deal to show off tech on an international stage. Not sure the average consumer is going to drive the market on 8K any time soon