[Answered by Graeme] : Am I doing something wrong?

[Viktor Sloth]

Hi guys,

A month or so ago, I was the most excited man in Denmark when I received the Dragon from FedEx.
But, the very first thing I noticed when I powered on the camera was noise. Red noise in the shadows.
- After searching these forums for help, it seems that people has this problem, but many also states that you just need to shoot it properly and be happy...


We are used to run and gun, meaning we do a lot of quick shots. Changing exposure, changing shutter speed and framerate at different temperatures. The Epic does this very well, but it seems the Dragon has no flex at all.
A cold sensor equals:
ISO 2000

Is that what to expect from this upgraded epic?
- I know it's high ISO, but the Epic could do that - it was noisy, but not painted with a gradient magenta from left to right.

Even when the camera is getting warm, changing the FPS to 75 in 5K with 180c shutter, you get these wonderful magenta artifacts in the shadows:
ISO 1000

So, I can't shoot slow motion, or with a cold camera.
What about a warm camera, with 25fps and 1/50 shutter at ISO 250 with a lot of light?
This is a 150% crop of a girls hair, that in real life, are pitch black.
ISO 250

I found a few work arounds, like crushing the blacks a lot, changing the tint a lot towards green.. Not really work arounds that can be accepted if you ask me and the issue are still visible now with an extremely green and contrasted image

Is my camera just more weird than the ones out there having the problems? Am I shooting it wrong? Or is this what to expect?

Thanks guys.
If interested I can upload R3D.'s and stuff.

 

[Björn Benckert]

There is a new setting in RCXP that deals with this issue... However you shoot with the noise bar fully raised on your screen dump, that will never be a good image. 2000 iso works superb if the footage is shot without the noise bar raised. As dragon with the new olpf still needs quite a bit of fill.... Pretty much identical as MX. Old olpf has about twice as good lowlight as the new one....

But I think this will be sorted quite quickly, the new setting in rcxp (forgot the name of it, dragon somthing) is part of the solution, more time to calibrate color science for the new olpf is another part of the puzzle.

 

[Viktor Sloth]

Hi Bjørn,

Thanks for your reply!

Yeah, I know I was stressing it here, but sometimes we just have to shoot in more low light conditions, and then you will get a noisy image - I get that, but on the MX the noise didn't come out as a gradient from left to right but a lot more... organic.

Yeah I read about that, I just see the need for getting the temperature right and stay exactly on the black shade, as a downgrade from the MX when shooting quick and swift.

For instance, we are shooting a fashion show next week where I wish I could bring the dragon, but I don't dare to, because I know the light will be limited and there will be a lot of contrast in the light. If I still had the MX I wouldn't think twice about bringing it.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

The beta version of the DRAON software supports four different blackshade settings. I think the best solution to the cold camera situation is to wait until the camera is warm, but if you plan ahead, you can have ready the different blackshades you need for 25fps, 75fps, at each of ISO 800 and ISO 2000. And you can compute new blackshades in a matter of a few minutes, not the many minutes it used to require. If you are doing a true guerrilla production (i.e., in the middle of an actual war zone) where you don't have minutes to spare before getting shot to death, then DRAGON may not be the best option for a quick run-n-gun. But it looks to me like your problem is mostly down to blackshading, and the beta software offers some reasonable accommodations in that regard.

 

[Jan Reiff]

Hi guys,

A month or so ago, I was the most excited man in Denmark when I received the Dragon from FedEx.
But, the very first thing I noticed when I powered on the camera was noise. Red noise in the shadows.
- After searching these forums for help, it seems that people has this problem, but many also states that you just need to shoot it properly and be happy...


We are used to run and gun, meaning we do a lot of quick shots. Changing exposure, changing shutter speed and framerate at different temperatures. The Epic does this very well, but it seems the Dragon has no flex at all.
A cold sensor equals:
ISO 2000

Is that what to expect from this upgraded epic?
- I know it's high ISO, but the Epic could do that - it was noisy, but not painted with a gradient magenta from left to right.

Even when the camera is getting warm, changing the FPS to 75 in 5K with 180c shutter, you get these wonderful magenta artifacts in the shadows:
ISO 1000

So, I can't shoot slow motion, or with a cold camera.
What about a warm camera, with 25fps and 1/50 shutter at ISO 250 with a lot of light?
This is a 150% crop of a girls hair, that in real life, are pitch black.
ISO 250

I found a few work arounds, like crushing the blacks a lot, changing the tint a lot towards green.. Not really work arounds that can be accepted if you ask me and the issue are still visible now with an extremely green and contrasted image

Is my camera just more weird than the ones out there having the problems? Am I shooting it wrong? Or is this what to expect?

Thanks guys.
If interested I can upload R3D.'s and stuff.

please show us R3D and compare with this too

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rgc8suy9sht63po/AACWs03hmOcEA2F_Wyc5xVkWa

 

[Niko Pueringer]

I understand the need to not underexpose, but putting your ISO to 2000 shouldn't just break your image like that.

Try doing a blackshade and see if it gives you that gradient again, both on a cold or hot camera.

 

[Phil Holland]

Am I doing something wrong? Images out of Dragon are unuseable.

In the examples the fundamental thing that stands out is shooting while the camera is cold. Mysterium-X or Dragon, don't do that or you will get a recorded image that has nothing to do with the current Black Shade.

Without being there, my best advise for your white backdrop is lowering the intensity on the BG to exposed white and not clipping white.

 

[Jan Reiff]

its hard to judge with this small images, please send R3D

on your monitor i see it´s underexposed, left side is full on histogram

 

[Sulekh Suman]

Viktor,

Which version of OLPF do you have on your Dragon?

 

[Leroy Jackson]

There is a new setting in RCXP that deals with this issue... However you shoot with the noise bar fully raised on your screen dump, that will never be a good image. 2000 iso works superb if the footage is shot without the noise bar raised. As dragon with the new olpf still needs quite a bit of fill.... Pretty much identical as MX. Old olpf has about twice as good lowlight as the new one....

But I think this will be sorted quite quickly, the new setting in rcxp (forgot the name of it, dragon somthing) is part of the solution, more time to calibrate color science for the new olpf is another part of the puzzle.

I've been reading all day and it's stuff like this that's starting to concern me with both the Scarlet and The Epic Dragon. I think I'm still gonna make the order but this new OLPF thing is concerning! I don't wanna work around issues I just want the camera to work especially for 10 grand more lol.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Looks like it needs back shading. Please get the Dragon up to shooting temperature, do a black shade and then try again. The gradient is the give-away that the camera is fresh and doesn't have a user-black shade applied.

Graeme

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I've been reading all day and it's stuff like this that's starting to concern me with both the Scarlet and The Epic Dragon. I think I'm still gonna make the order but this new OLPF thing is concerning! I don't wanna work around issues I just want the camera to work especially for 10 grand more lol.

...

 

[Buck Forester]

I'm looking at buying a Dragon in the next few weeks. But I'm not very techy. I may just end up getting a Sony F55 because it seems those cameras are ready to just hit record and go. Tweaking stuff and updates and works-in-progress and figuring stuff out is not my strongpoint. I just like to shoot and have the camera do its thing. When I read stuff like this it scares non-geeky guys like me in a big way.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I'm looking at buying a Dragon in the next few weeks. But I'm not very techy. I may just end up getting a Sony F55 because it seems those cameras are ready to just hit record and go. Tweaking stuff and updates and works-in-progress and figuring stuff out is not my strongpoint. I just like to shoot and have the camera do its thing. When I read stuff like this it scares non-geeky guys like me in a big way.

If you're happy with the F55 look, lack of onboard 4K raw, sure! For me Redcode is so efficient, its worth it.

 

[Erich Ocean]

If you're happy with the F55 look, lack of onboard 4K raw, sure! For me Redcode is so efficient, its worth it.

Sony PMW F55 has onboard 4K RAW for $5500 (as an attachment, same as RED):

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Sony-AXS-R5-2K-4K-RAW-Recorder-for-PMW-F5-PMW-F55/

It's also got a global shutter and great low-light, and the color is stunning when processed with a 3D LUT:

http://www.vision-color.com/impulz/

For the OP, it does sound like you'd be happier with the F55. I owned an Epic, and it was a lot more work for me to get good results (but you can get great results if you do work at it). You just don't sound like RED's target market for the camera. In the end, I wasn't either, although I have found a use for it in some studio situations where it's combination of high frame rates and high resolution is exactly what I need.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Sony PMW F5/F55 have onboard RAW for $5500 (as an attachment, same as RED):

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Sony-AXS-R5-2K-4K-RAW-Recorder-for-PMW-F5-PMW-F55/

Yeah, sorry used the wrong words. I should have said extra recorder.

 

[Erich Ocean]

Yeah, sorry used the wrong words. I should have said extra recorder.

No worries, although…I payed $1500 more to get RAW recording on my Epic. It only came with SDI and HDMI outputs, the RAW recorder was a separate module. Have they integrated it into the body on the Epic DRAGONs? That'd be cool.

Sony's RAW recorder is pricier, but it also includes some features that RED's doesn't include, such as 240fps recording at 2K resolution without cropping the sensor. Either way, both are relatively affordable for what they do.

 

[Bob Gundu]

No worries, although…I payed $1500 more to get RAW recording on my Epic. It only came with SDI and HDMI outputs, the RAW recorder was a separate module. Have they integrated it into the body on the Epic DRAGONs? That'd be cool.

Sony's RAW recorder is pricier, but it also includes some features that RED's doesn't include, such as 240fps recording at 2K resolution without cropping the sensor. Either way, both are relatively affordable for what they do.

RED only records RAW. Or did I not understand you?

 

[Denis Buhot]

I don't wanna work around issues I just want the camera to work especially for 10 grand more lol.

For ten grand more, it seems that you will get a camera that needs black shading, that won't shoot properly if cold, that will shoot best at iso 250 or that will need to swap olpf. So you'd better forget about the press button and record stuff, or any kind of run and gun, or efp/eng, or use when power is scarce both for camera and lighting. You will get an outstanding, yet demanding and pretty touchy stage camera. Period. And it seems everybody is happy with that, and that red simply does not seem to care, while things are getting worse in that respect. Red was never the easiest camera to work with in the field. Yet, that was vastly compensated for by many advantages in image quality. But again, it seems that things are getting worse instead of better with Dragon... I simply don't understand what can reasonably be expected, since competition will likely take full advantage from that kind of choices.

Anyway, people like me who chose red, wanted to use the epic in the field or wanted it to simply "work" when needed are coldly left on the side of the road here, with no upgrade practically available in the future. I confess that I find it pretty unfair.

I am also... worried

 

[David Battistella]

For ten grand more, it seems that you will get a camera that needs black shading, that won't shoot properly if cold, that will shoot best at iso 250 or that will need to swap olpf. So you'd better forget about the press button and record stuff, or any kind of run and gun, or efp/eng, or use when power is scarce both for camera and lighting. You will get an outstanding, yet demanding and pretty touchy stage camera. Period. And it seems everybody is happy with that, and that red simply does not seem to care, while things are getting worse in that respect.

I am also... worried

Denis,

you can worry all you like but it seems like you have been reading to much about dragon and not using it enough. All the statements you make above are pretty much false. I've used my epic, and now my dragon in those situations you describe in about five different countries over the past few years. All I can say about your post is that, it's total BS.

Battistella