An Epic First Day :)

[Steve Freebairn]

can't say much about how are doing it but we are doing some pretty amazing stuff really fast. Zach Hilton, Brook Willard, and I have a pleasure working with John, who is crazy talented and incredibly nice. Everyone should be very excited for Epic

 

[Ketch Rossi]

The Epics are true 800 in daylight and I think 640 in tungsten, the mirror on the 3D rigs cuts out 1 stop, so on interiors I set my meter at 320 and exteriors I set it for 400 and then we ND, we are shooting close to wide open all the time which is very hard on our focus pullers. I spent time with Jim Cameron who extolled the value of shooting with shallow depth of field in 3D to direct the audience as to where to look, Claudio Miranda who shot TRON echoed those views and we are doing the same.

I'm very happy to hear that you are shooting WO, as I much love the same thing, however
John what I would like to ask if you can answer, is how much of what you guys are shooting
leaves inside the screen vs. in a floating window outside the screen?

Also how does the TS-5 with the SIP 2100, Are you very happy with the Rig?

 

[John Schwartzman ASC]

Today we also shot 72fps with timecode and genlock, the 3ality SIP's didn't like it but the speed was great for what we were shooting.

 

[John Schwartzman ASC]

We are allowing for a little on each side of the frame so when we re-converge in post we won't have to blow anything up, although on this camera you could zoom in a long way before you noticed anything, the resolution is just crazy, which is both good and bad, remember faces are what DP's get paid to light and this camera sees everything and i mean everything.

 

[Zach Hilton]

It is simply astounding. Red has done an awesome job with these cameras. I am still amazed at the size of this rig compared to what was used on Pirates. Pretty amazing! Deanan, Matt, and all the Red peeps have been absolutely great. The images that John is making with this are incredibly beautiful. Can't wait for everyone to see it on the big screen!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Cool John,

for those that might not know, 3Ality uses the SIP, an Image processing unit, which is what makes the 3Ality S3D rig so
powerful over anything else out there, the SIP, amongst its many powerhouse tools, it is used to set up the 3D rig and align the lenses, as close as possible to
perfection, and also used during the shoot to have a better and smooth control of the rig.

Funny to see that it doesn't like 72fps as it is supposed to handle various frame rates, and sure hope to be able to take it alway to 120fps.

 

[Brook Willard]

There is something difficult to articulate about the images that the Epic makes when compared with an MX RED ONE. A lot is to be handed to the new color science, but there's definitely more to it. It just looks better... it's fabulous. It's a delight to work with such a massively talented cinematographer and the images he's creating with the camera will knock everybody's socks off.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Brook and John,

This is your mother speaking ... "Go to Bed"

Lots of rain tomorrow... and today was a ball buster day......

And I will say the Epics are doing great......

 

[Michael Olsen]

Brook; John:

Thank you both for your insight into production with the Epic. For those of us on the sidelines here it makes for some exciting reading.

Are you at all able to comment on the ergonomics, ease of use, and/or workflow? It sounds like the small size and light weight is making working with the camera a breeze, and on the post end it sounds like LI is running really smoothly and giving quick feedback to everyone involved.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Hi all,

The images that Epic delivers are hard to describe. Rich and full... It's like opening the lid on a Hamburg Steinway and playing that first full chord... As a musician, It can't help but bring a smile to your face. What I can say on an open forum is very little at this point, so I will leave it that for now. Amazing stuff.

Lucas

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Hi all,

The images that Epic delivers are hard to describe. Rich and full... It's like opening the lid on a Hamburg Steinway and playing that first full chord... As a musician, It can't help but bring a smile to your face. What I can say on an open forum is very little at this point, so I will leave it that for now. Amazing stuff.

Lucas

Wow, Lucas you are speaking my language. The anticipation mounts! As if that was possible... Sleep? What sleep!

 

[Adrian Frearson]

This thread is like phone sex for camera geeks, it's a bit cruel really:tongue_smilie:

Seriously though, a big thanks for taking the time to post on your progress.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Are you at all able to comment on the ergonomics, ease of use, and/or workflow?

+1

it'd be great to know more about RedMote as well...

John, Brook et al.,
Thanks for taking the time to post updates and news from the set, i'm pretty sure you're working really hard, trying to find some time to share with us around here is very generous.

 

[Steve Dent]

Gripping stuff, thanks boys, keep it up!

 

[Curran Giddens]

...we are shooting close to wide open all the time which is very hard on our focus pullers. I spent time with Jim Cameron who extolled the value of shooting with shallow depth of field in 3D to direct the audience as to where to look, Claudio Miranda who shot TRON echoed those views and we are doing the same.

I am very happy to hear this. Harder, but worth the extra effort.

 

[Shane Betts]

This thread is like phone sex for camera geeks, it's a bit cruel really:tongue_smilie:

Seriously though, a big thanks for taking the time to post on your progress.

What he said!

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I spent time with Jim Cameron who extolled the value of shooting with shallow depth of field in 3D to direct the audience as to where to look, Claudio Miranda who shot TRON echoed those views and we are doing the same.

IMHO that's completely back-asswards. Shallow DOF hinders the 3D viewing experience, can destroy the entire 3D illusion and should be avoided in 3D features, IMO. When your brain experiences depth in what the eyes see, you begin to subconsciously examine the view for information on different levels of depth, exactly like you do in the real world. Sure, there's stuff happening in the center foreground, but your brain wants to take a peek at the background, convinced there might be something interesting or dangerous there. It's not as if your conscious attention is wandering away from what's important in the scene - unless of course the movie is so bad you can't be interested, but that can hardly be blamed on 3D. But when you use shallow DOF, you're prohibiting the viewer's brain from doing what it normally does. The brain knows it's supposed to be able to see detail in the background at distance X, but there's nothing but blur there. "Something's wrong", it thinks to itself, and *pop* goes the illusion of 3D. That happened to me repeatedly while viewing Avatar.

 

[Michael Cioni]

Epic Workflow

Epic Workflow

Brook; John:

Thank you both for your insight into production with the Epic. For those of us on the sidelines here it makes for some exciting reading.

Are you at all able to comment on the ergonomics, ease of use, and/or workflow? It sounds like the small size and light weight is making working with the camera a breeze, and on the post end it sounds like LI is running really smoothly and giving quick feedback to everyone involved.

With the help of all my partners, I have been heading up the end-to-end workflow on this film for about 3 months, along with a slew of other Epic 3D and 2D projects. I will comment on this workflow as best I can in the coming weeks. For now, I've included a picture of our OUTPOST carts which are now optimized for Epic downloading, processing, and delivery to AVID, PIX, and iPads for editorial and dailies viewing.
What is important for all soon-to-be Epic users is to start brainstorming a way to manage their Epic data which, compared to RED MX:
1. is 2-3 times larger than MX RC42
2. is saved to cards that are 128GBs (8x larger than 16GB CF)
3. requires window-burned 3D side-by-side file creation (for 3D shows)
4. requires convergence adjustments (popular 3D trend is to shoot parallel)
5. requires 3x copies of all media prior to leaving set each day

At an average of 6GBs-8GBs per minute, what many people will run into on their first Epic adventures is the potential (and dangerous) bottle-neck of improved image fidelity in the form of increased file sizes. This needs to be well thought out on Epic productions to insure there is no bottle-neck in the download and processing stations. Without a newly optimized set of gear, productions could fall behind set and the data-techs/DITs/wranglers will be left on set backing up and processing for hours after wrap. A surge in increased processing times could have a negative impact on the Epic if producers notice a significant delay in the ability to provide files in the same manner as they are used to with MX.

On shows that shoot to uncompressed DPX files (such as the file-based adaptations of F35, Alexa, and Genesis), many producers are holding transportation longer than anticipated due to the delay of the data. I'd like to encourage people to start benchmarking their systems now and upgrade where necessary to adequately handle the size of Epic data which is similar to the size of uncompressed HD (upto 180MB/s), which can be 10GBs per minute. The simplest way to start preparing for this is to make sure you can maintain the ability to move files in real time. In other words, your system needs to be capable of moving up to 8GBs-10GBs to multiple locations in 1 minute's time. RED has helped solve the problem with the new RED Stations, which deliver incredible speeds of SSD transfers to multiple targets. From there, you need to optimize your systems with the ability to:
1. check sum all data to each target directory (2-3 total)
2. color, sync, converge every shot
3. process AVID, ProRes, H264 (we do all 3 for every mag)
4. transfer to a shuttle drive

Some hints to begin designing your workflow (both on set and in post) is to:
1. 100% eliminate dependance on FireWire800. Reliance on even 1 lane of FW800 will likely start putting Epic shows behind schedule well before lunch.
2. Rockets are standard. Accelerating your viewing and processing has always been a must, but with files of this size, reliance on CPU power alone to debayer in a reasonable amount of time is simply impossible.
3. Look at different transfer potentials. We have been relying heavily on SAS (we did all of Pirates 4 with MAXX Digital SAS Raids) and lots of eSata shuttles. GTech now makes an incredible, quiet, and mobile SAS Raid (GSpeed eS Pro)which can easily deliver over 500MB/s R&W (4-8TBs @ Raid 5). In other words, you don't want to get stuck moving multiple terabytes per day over FW800.
4. Multiple Computer Terminals. With 2+ camera shows (or in 3D 4+ camera shows), you will need to have multiple computers to aid in the processing, checking, viewing, coloring, transferring, etc, of these files. Design your stations to handle more than 1 CPU.

Granted, all of this is brand new, and this film has taken a lot of the arrows, which means we can share our experiential knowledge with the community. Deanan and Matt have done incredible work with REDCine-X. (I think we might have received 10 builds inside of a week). REDCine-X is a critical part of the process, and with the addition of a number of new tools in the app, Epic shows are poised to out-perform the competition with the power RC-X delivers to on-set operators.

Lastly, the most important tool for a solid workflow are the genetics of its team. Commenting on the on-set workflow, I have to give major props to the small, but powerful team we've assembled for this Epic production.

1. Files come from the camera through Brook Willard and head to what I call his "lilly-pad" station. Brook colors each clip (LE & RE) with John, sets convergence with Rob, and creates an RMD profile which independently accompanies the R3Ds.
2. R3Ds and RMDs are delivered to the OUTPOST stations where the FreeHill team, Steve Freebairn and Zach Hilton, begin the processing tasks. They check sum 2 copies to 2 raids, apply the RMDs, create side-by-side media, window burn it, and create AVID, ProRes, and H264 across 2 terminals and transfer it the eS Pros for delivery directly to editorial.
3. A fully-completed set of synced, graded, watermarked file dailies is processed and files are transferred to iPads for production to take home with them (iPads rarely contain the last clips of the day since principles leave soon after the last take).

I have to say considering all the unknowns of a contract like this, I speak for a number of people on the team who have said we are happy with the results thus far. With the right amount of pre-production and testing, every Epic job can be as smooth as a RED MX - only the stakes have gone up, so we all need to re-evaluate our talent and tools to insure we deliver the best results to all our clients.
m

 

[Brian Timmons]

Mike that was one dense yet incredibly informative post.
It's the reason why come back to reduser.net throughout the day.

Excuse me while I digest everything you just said but in the meantime
thanks for that post.

Puts a lot in perspective.

Brian Timmons
britim-media

 

[Christoffer Hulusjö]

IMHO that's completely back-asswards. Shallow DOF hinders the 3D viewing experience, can destroy the entire 3D illusion and should be avoided in 3D features, IMO. When your brain experiences depth in what the eyes see, you begin to subconsciously examine the view for information on different levels of depth, exactly like you do in the real world. Sure, there's stuff happening in the center foreground, but your brain wants to take a peek at the background, convinced there might be something interesting or dangerous there. It's not as if your conscious attention is wandering away from what's important in the scene - unless of course the movie is so bad you can't be interested, but that can hardly be blamed on 3D. But when you use shallow DOF, you're prohibiting the viewer's brain from doing what it normally does. The brain knows it's supposed to be able to see detail in the background at distance X, but there's nothing but blur there. "Something's wrong", it thinks to itself, and *pop* goes the illusion of 3D. That happened to me repeatedly while viewing Avatar.

I've seen some really spectacular footage with large DOF that really makes for an exciting 3D experience and makes your eyes want play around/explore the scene. This combined with a moving/animated convergence during focus pulls I find is very immersive and directs the audience eyes where the action is. I guess its different preferences, I know Joseph Kosinski has stated in interviews that he always tried to keep the convergence static during takes for Tron.