All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

[Gabriele Turchi]

I'm curious about why, and I hope it's not just because the Alexa has it? I'd rather have a half a stop more than the OLD OLPF but retain that clean low end, there is far more picture information to be had down there.

Battistella

because most likely there will be a much greater % of situations where you cannot control your highlight (in outdoor scenarios) , and i would prefer have those highlight not clipping ... shadows by definitions are "shadows"...
Unless you want to shoot in woods at twilight using only natural light ...i really can't think why i would prefer have more DR in shadows at the expanses of highlights .

the % of situations where you cannot control highlights is much greater than the amount of situations where you cannot control shadows and the % of image most likely subject of the shot) affected by highlights is always way bigger than the % of image affected by the shadows (again , unless you shoot in the woods at twilight using only natural light )

if RED had a certain amount of DR available i think they did the right thing , and off course they moved the DR up to those highlight just enough to match Alexa . and i agree on that choice , since i prefer preserve highlights .

anyway , it's just my opinion
g

 

[Gunleik Groven]

even cleaner and more sAturatedbcolors and extra highlights, and not the flare and what looks like similar lowlight performance, just cleaner and even better colors... not that hard to me.

curious what the ADD process will do in the lows.

dragon does at least 2 stop more in the dark than MX out the door. it is kinda going from "more" to "even more".

but that is just me...

 

[David Battistella]

That's cool Gabriele. I was just wanting to know why. I was not thinking that the clipping and rolloff was so bad with the OLD OLPF and OLD Dragon calibration. I thought it was going off like film. Then that test came out two weeks and everything moved up the scale with the new stuff. I think the OLPF is a total coup and I am glad the red dots and flares are gone, that alone would have been enough for me.

Battistella

 

[Medavoym]

Quote Originally Posted by Matt Ryan View Post
In the CML tests Dragon was equal to Alexa on the low end, so it is disappointing that we lost a bit on the low end unlike what Phil had suggested.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?112230-the-New-Dragon-OLPF

I was actually asking Phil about the discrepancy... I was aware of that link. Phil said both shadows AND highlights are extended... but it seems one is extended at the expense of the other?

Just curious what Phil has to say about that.

 

[David Battistella]

I want the highlights to look like this...

 

[Medavoym]

IN ANY CASE...

Did we give up on the idea that Dragon has 16+ stops? It seems so, judging from the comments in this thread.

It looks like Dragon is still struggling to match Alexa - which is a 13-14 stops camera.

Can someone explain clearly what's going on with the 16+ stops claim?
If Dragon is a 16+ stops camera, then it would easily exceed Alexa in both highlights and shadows. No need to push and pull and re-arrange the available DR like crazy (and still not match - or, at best, barely equal - Alexa).

Where are the two extra stops of DR? I am honestly confused, not trying to pour gasoline over fire.

P.S. I love RED.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Were both of your charts (from new and old calibration) shot with the same exposure?

Same Matt.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Thanks Luigi

 

[Brian Boyer]

I'm torn on this. Not sure if it would be nicer to have lower noise in the bottom or 1 highlight stop. the top end is not where the noise problems occur.

If it's between noise and highlight rolloff i think i might take lower noise.

Battistella

Obviously, having both would be nice. FWIW, I'll take the extra stop on the high end almost every time. I seem to notice when a sensor is struggling with highlights, especially on faces, more so than I notice noise in shadow areas.

Under certain circumstances, the direct sunlight side of a face may blow out no matter what you're capturing the image with.

However, some sensors/film stocks do it later and with more aplomb than others. And, the majority of the time you're focused on that face, not the shadow under a table down in the lower left corner of the frame.

I think Dragon's 7+ stops above middle gray and much improved color combo are going to hold more sway in the industry than being able to see a little less noise in woefully underexposed material.

 

[Gabriele Turchi]

IN ANY CASE...

Did we give up on the idea that Dragon has 16+ stops? It seems so, judging from the comments in this thread.

It looks like Dragon is still struggling to match Alexa - which is a 13-14 stops camera.

Can someone explain clearly what's going on with the 16+ stops claim?
If Dragon is a 16+ stops camera, then it would easily exceed Alexa in both highlights and shadows. No need to push and pull and re-arrange the available DR like crazy (and still not match - or, at best, barely equal - Alexa).

Where are the two extra stops of DR? I am honestly confused, not trying to pour gasoline over fire.

P.S. I love RED.

yep......

 

[Phil Holland]

I was actually asking Phil about the discrepancy... I was aware of that link. Phil said both shadows AND highlights are extended... but it seems one is extended at the expense of the other?

Just curious what Phil has to say about that.

I heard the echos of my name.

Accurately measuring Dynamic Range of camera systems at the level is tricky business and it does need to be measured, not guesstimated.

The briefest way I can explain what the New Calibration and New OLPF provides for Epic Dragon is:

- Approximately 1.3 stops more highlight retention.
- Improved IR Performance
- Far less IR Contamination in the Shadows and Darks, which provides more detail and tonal accuracy down low.
- Eliminates the IR "orbs" around highlights, meaning handles IR reflection and glare better.
- Improves overall color performance across the board, which also means a better straight out of camera image.

Those are the 5 things I can think of. I've had my camera for just a few days now with the new tech and I'll be measuring it soon again. I can safely say that the prototype I tested a couple weeks ago measured a bit over 16 stops of captured and usable Dynamic Range in places you'd "expect it". There's actually even more than that that you can measure, but you wouldn't shoot flat images that way.

That's where it stands right now. The color is now just fantastic. It was good before and now it's even better.

 

[Noel R.]

IN ANY CASE...

Did we give up on the idea that Dragon has 16+ stops? It seems so, judging from the comments in this thread.

It looks like Dragon is still struggling to match Alexa - which is a 13-14 stops camera.

Can someone explain clearly what's going on with the 16+ stops claim?
If Dragon is a 16+ stops camera, then it would easily exceed Alexa in both highlights and shadows. No need to push and pull and re-arrange the available DR like crazy (and still not match - or, at best, barely equal - Alexa).

Where are the two extra stops of DR? I am honestly confused, not trying to pour gasoline over fire.

P.S. I love RED.

I think a good question would be: How many stops are we actually getting?

 

[Bob Gundu]

I'm still loving the new Dragon regardless of what the specs say. The colour separation is worth it for me. The highlight rolloff is a huge improvement too. Plus A.D.D may just blow the doors off this whole conversation. RED isn't about to stop tweaking Dragon.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm still loving the new Dragon regardless of what the specs say. The colour separation is worth it for me. The highlight rolloff is a huge improvement too. Plus A.D.D may just blow the doors off this whole conversation. RED isn't about tho stop tweaking Dragon.

Salient point bob. Im loving what I am seeing. We're just nit picking now.

Battsitella

 

[Noel R.]

I like the Dragon also, but I'd still like to know how many stops we are getting.

 

[Nick Morrison]

To me, that Dragon can match Alexa DR, be 1/3 the size and weight, 1/3 the price, and shoot at 6K...is a massive, ginormous technical achievement. I can strap this thing to my helmet. That's insane. Try doing that with a Alexa or F65. How they managed to pack this much horsepower into so small a camera is beyond me. It's like they've built the first fusion reactor, far as I'm concerned.

 

[Brian Boyer]

I like the Dragon also, but I'd still like to know how many stops we are getting.

As far as I know, Arri tests dynamic range and sensitivity using the ARRI DRTC Dynamic Range Test Chart seen below.

According to Arri (from 4K and Beyond - Comparing Digital Camera Performance: Part II, I believe):

"Dynamic range and sensitivity should be measured in a single test image. With sequential attempts (multiple images with differing lighting levels), the possibility of a result being influenced by adaptive filters in the process chain can’t be ruled out. Physiologically, the question of how much contrast can be transmitted in one image (simultaneous contrast) is more important than sequential contrast.
The test image should deliver at least 16 f-stops of dynamic range. This requirement could not be fulfilled with any standard test image and therefore the following procedure was developed.

The set up uses a metal plate with 40 centrally arranged holes with a piece of B/W film under each one. This film is lit using an ARRILASER Film Recorder. Optical densities over 2.5 are reached by placing multiple strips of film over each other. Theoretically, these could be reached with a combination of ND filters but tests have shown that these have a very high IR transparency. Apart from that, they bleach faster than B/W material (archive film for color separations).
The test image is lit with a halogen lamp in an integrating sphere.
The optical density rating of the film strip in the test image is established using V-lambda (Dvis) and assumes the channel separated RGB interpretation of a camera also ‘sees’ a neutral scene brightness."

Since comparisons to Alexa are inevitable, and Arri themselves dismiss pretty much every other test people use to measure the dynamic range of digital cameras, it might be informative to see Dragon tested using this contraption.

Zacuto's "The Great Camera Shootout 2011" used it to measure the cameras involved, including the R1MX, but that's the only time I know of it being used to test a camera from RED.

 

[luigivaltulini]

IN ANY CASE...

Did we give up on the idea that Dragon has 16+ stops? It seems so, judging from the comments in this thread.

It looks like Dragon is still struggling to match Alexa - which is a 13-14 stops camera.

Can someone explain clearly what's going on with the 16+ stops claim?
If Dragon is a 16+ stops camera, then it would easily exceed Alexa in both highlights and shadows. No need to push and pull and re-arrange the available DR like crazy (and still not match - or, at best, barely equal - Alexa).

Where are the two extra stops of DR? I am honestly confused, not trying to pour gasoline over fire.

P.S. I love RED.

Arri has always been conservative ..
Just to be clear, with Sekonic DR test and I do not remember where I made ​​the post, Alexa has about 18 stops and 14 "useable", Dragon in the test it seemed to me 16.3 and 13.3 stops "usable".
So now with the new OLPF we are very very close to Alexa. THIS IS ONLY FOR DR..
Color /Resolution/Noise and and and DRAGON is more better.

 

[Evin Grant]

I think once the dust settles from all of this what we're going to see is that the Dragon with the updated OLPF and calibration comes in at a measured 16.5 stops of usable dynamic range.

The Alexa will measure at about the same end to end but the reason that Arri doesn't publish this as the spec and instead says 14.5 stops is they know the stops at the top are purely rolloff (low con?) and not capable of recording usable detail and the bottom stop is too noisy, we already know the Dragon is about a stop cleaner in the shadows so this makes total sense. So although on a chart you may be able to count the same number of patches on each camera you'll be able to actually use and have access to those extra 2 stops on the Dragon in a way that the Alexa doesn't. It will also be interesting to try some low con and light diffusion to see what affect this has on Dragon highlight rolloff.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Still dragon shines at 5000ASA... alexa dont...

https://vimeo.com/87794102


So to me you have to take resolution into account when you talk range. Dragon downscaled to 2k is slick at far higher iso's than alexa files at the same iso and 2k due to the huge downsampling going from 6k to 2k. So usable range is always something that has to be discussed together with resolution as noise goes up and down with image size.

Edit one more with lower iso... low like 2500 and differnet white balance... whenever 2500 ISO that became a low I do not know...

https://vimeo.com/87804971


This camera makes the street outside my office look like a backlot in hollywood..