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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

Please remember that Red has a new OLPF and Color Science for the Dragon Sensor
that were not used on this test.

Using the new Dragon OLPF and Color Science increases the High Light Latitude on Dragon.
 
Martin Stevens said:
Please remember that Red has a new OLPF and Color Science for the Dragon Sensor
that were not used on this test.

Using the new Dragon OLPF and Color Science increases the High Light Latitude on Dragon.
Click to expand...
you should let him know- he's probably unaware if this..;)
 
Hi.

I deliberately do not comment on the comparisons until I have had a time to look at them. Which I still do not.

But as to the quick-comparisons I looked at when we shot, Alexa had in the region of 1,5 stop more in the highlights. With current OLPF. Shot side-by side with an F55 between them.

That corresponded well with what I expected in Dragons current state after looking at the MX and the Dragon.


Guys, try to remember what I, Mark, Mark and others have said.
We did the Dragon because it is a great camera to work with. It is a really unbelievable camerasystem that grows on you every day.

The Dragons DR is great as it is. Colors are off the charts.
AND then things will get better. In both ends of the dynamic scale.

Geoff did not do anything to break it. And RAW files will be up.

There is definitely more to an image than where it clips... :)

Clippingpoint and how it clips is just one thing of interest...
 
Last edited:
Sulekh Suman said:
Ergin,

Has he uploaded Arri RAW (.ari) files yet? I was only able to download jpgs for Alexa.
Click to expand...

no he only uploaded r3D files. He will upload arriraw files tomorrow.
But you can download arri TIFF files. (just right click on the picture)
 
We said we that we still had untapped DR when we released in December. We have found it through the new OLPF and Color Science, as others have validated. The Dragon is significantly better than the camera we released two months ago. And we are upgrading all cameras shipped at no charge. People can shoot and test whatever they want, But we expect the only tests that are valid are of any use are ones that have the new OLPF as all Dragons shipping now do. This was public knowledge a month ago, and Geoff even stated he knew about this but chose to ignore it.


And then... about 18 different people emailed me this comment this morning made by Geoff.


If you are reading this and are intending to repost on Reduser please first
of all read the T&C's you agreed to.
The, if you decide to ignore the T&C's, read what is written, read it
thoroughly and try and understand it.
I'm asking this because there are a lot of posts on Reduser about these
tests that are just so full of shit!
Not because of opinions expressed just because people comment without
reading properly.
I can't reply because I'm banned for life at Reduser so please, if you have
any queries ask me here, don't speculate wildly.
And if you're the kind of tossser who posts that I may now be doing a fair
test, well fuck you! All the tests I've done for the last 16 years on CML
have been fair. If a camera looked bad as a result then it was the camera
that was at fault!
Apparently I'm rushing into my test before the new OLPF is available, these
are the tests that I announced last year so I'm hardly rushing into them.
If RED had cooperated as the other camera manufacturers did, ALL of them,
then we could have tested the new OLPF, unfortunately RED feels the need to
play games.
People talk about the history between RED and me, it's sad that they ignore
the good stuff and only dredge up the crap.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based
geoff@cinematography.net
Skype geoff.boyle
mobile: +44 (0)7511 506048
www.gboyle.co.uk



First of all... nobody here is playing games except for Geoff. We do not , and will never get involved in Geoff Boyle and Cml tests. End of story... so I would caution whatever you read about us over there. Geoff is a dick.... seems like a very unhappy man, and the above unprovoked statement reflects as much.

I personally have caught Geoff posting inaccurate technical statements about our camera and our company that when I tried to politely get him to correct, he had a hissy fit and said he knew his statements were accurate ( which they were not ) and when he finally realized he was wrong, he posted a backhanded manipulative retraction that just made things worse. Obviously we are not going to involve ourselves in working with someone who ( as he admits) is paid by our competitors and posts false technical info that only hurts us.

Add that to the personal statements Geoff made against Jim Jannard over the years and you can understand why we stay the fuck away from him and CML.

Im sure our score for these "new" tests will suddenly become lower because of this post... but fuck that guy and the horse he rode in on.
 
Ergin Ozturk said:
I just loaded R3d and Alexa Tiff files to Resolve to find exact clipping points. It seems there is 1 stop difference in highlights. Dragon start to clip 1 stop earlier than Alexa.
Click to expand...

Correct. However, a quickie since you posted these and I'm sure we can see one big difference here.

"Think total dynamic range". Check out how much more dynamic range is placed in the shadows and also the midtones at this given exposure at clipping for both systems.

Now, which has more total dynamic range? And yes that difference is more than 1 stop.

Dynamic Range is all about "where you place it" with these camera. This is one of the reasons the New Calibration was created as well as the New OLPF.

For those curious, it's approximately 1.3-ish stops more in the highlights with the New Calibration based around a precise base exposure set at 18% gray. Interestingly enough there are gains to be had in the shadows as well due to the New Calibration and lack of shadow detail contamination by the New OLPF.

So as much as this shows Alexa has one more stop up top, it shows that Dragon has several more stops down low. And this is with the "old stuff". With the new stuff you will see more up top and more down low and the "meat" in between is nice and "fat".
 
Guys, if somebody can, take Dragon with new OLPF, take Alexa and do new comparison test simillar way as it was done at cienmatography.net.
I'm sure Dragon will kick Alexa ;-)
 
First of all... nobody here is playing games except for Geoff. We do not , and will never get involved in Geoff Boyle and Cml tests. End of story...

Jared, I don't doubt that there are games going on - and I'm no referee but it takes two to tango. Geoff did have good things to say about the Dragon he tested. I know I'm looking forward to shooting with it and the new color science and OLPF swap.

From Geoff on 02.08.2014:

Just looking at the first results and of course I rushed to see the
differences between Alexa and Dragon.

Looking at the differences between the top and bottom chips of the DSC
Chroma du Monde chart I can just distinguish the difference between the
bottom two steps at minus 5 stops on both cameras, when we go to the
highlights I can see 5 stops on the Alexa and 4 on the Dragon.

However, the Dragon images are far quieter, a lot lot quieter.

I expect that pretty soon the Dragon will match and maybe surpass the Alexa
for DR.

As far as colour goes I'm still checking but I'm really impressed with the
Dragon so far.


Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based
geoff@cinematography.net
Skype geoff.boyle
mobile: +44 (0)7511 506048
www.gboyle.co.uk
 
Jeez, keep your panties on guys. The tests will continue I'm sure, as will the debate. I don't understand the insecurity I'm sensing here, is it just the internet distortion field?
Lets see what the Dragon has going for it shall we...

1/2 the price of an Alexa √
More DR than the Alexa √
4x the resolution of the Alexa √
1/3 the size of an Alexa √
faster frame rates than the Alexa √
Compressed RAW onboard √
Equivalent or superior color fidelity to Alexa √

Blue "Arri" logo X! Shit! Well I guess we're screwed boys:beatdeadhorse5:
 
The test was conducted fairly with a Dragon camera. You guys released the camera with this OLPF. That's not Geoff's fault.

Any untapped DR in the new calibration is great, but looking at the R3Ds , I'm sure it's only going to get us up to or nearer the claimed 16.5. Given that's what we signed up for I think it's only right that the upgrade is free.

David
 
I would like to see some of Geoff's posts about dragon continued to be posted here just like MJC and Ergin have as i have no time for CML and the emails that totally drain my phone battery.

The whole CML thing is too hard.
 
Guys, DR is not all about clippingpoint. Practically it is not even all about luma-levels.

Colors, noise, flexibility in post and a few other parameters come in. Even if you choose to not use the camera as run-and-gun as I sometimes do.

There are a few reasons I think the test is good to show side-by side, but not an accurate way to measure DR.
If you happen to think those two statements are conflicting... I wil explain.
 
David Litchfield said:
The test was conducted fairly with a Dragon camera. You guys released the camera with this OLPF. That's not Geoff's fault.

Any untapped DR in the new calibration is great, but looking at the R3Ds , I'm sure it's only going to get us up to or nearer the claimed 16.5. Given that's what we signed up for I think it's only right that the upgrade is free.

David
Click to expand...

It is not the tests that have pushed me sideways which is why I haven't commented on this test before today. It is about the insults he made this morning about you guys here talking about his results that pushed me over the edge.

Definitely not Graceful in any way shape or form.... but there is a point where enough is enough.
 
... and the winner is? ...

... and the winner is? ...

I've learned a lot on RedUser and I've learned a lot on CML. Both have their distortion fields and agendas. Both often reveal more truth by omission than the authors intend.

Fortunately, we can test for ourselves and come to our own conclusions - regardless of what Geoff, or Jarred, says.

Props to Gunleik for bringing his no nonsense approach to the proceedings.

Bottom line: testing the Dragon with the original flare prone OLPF makes the results of limited value in the real world. Expecting Geoff to schedule tests only when RED has their latest and greatest well sorted is obviously problematic.

Cheers - #19
 
Evin Grant said:
Lets see what the Dragon has going for it shall we...
Click to expand...

Heh. Agreed. That's why I expressed my opinion/choice with my wallet.

I'd own something else if I preferred to make images with it.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I've learned a lot on RedUser and I've learned a lot on CML. Both have their distortion fields and agendas. Both often reveal more truth by omission than the authors intend.

Fortunately, we can test for ourselves and come to our own conclusions - regardless of what Geoff, or Jarred, says.

Props to Gunleik for bringing his no nonsense approach to the proceedings.

Bottom line: testing the Dragon with the original flare prone OLPF makes the results of limited value in the real world. Expecting Geoff to schedule tests only when RED has their latest and greatest well sorted is obviously problematic.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

I see all the hostility. I am not blind. And it hurts my business.
I can understand it. But practically, it just hurts my business.

I will not comment on the limited use. As the Dragon I have is the Dragon I have.
BUT. I will comment on the assumptiom that the "old" Dragon in suddenly bad.

Because it is not. It is a rather outstanding camera. A camera that will get better, but still quite outstanding.

And THAT is one of my reasons for going there with my Dragon... :)
 
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