All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

[shashbugu]

To ALL of those who have done MX vs Dragon etc. tests, let me say how thankful I am that you have
done them and posted them etc.

One thing is overwhelming clear... The DRAGON sensor is way better than MX and Alexa.

"Overwhelmingly better than the MX and the Alexa" really? Of course it has more resolution and DR than the Alexa, so do the F5/f55/f65, but what is constantly being discussed around all forums is that it's not just the DR and resolution that makes the Alexa, there's a whole lot more to it. You have to view these cameras as different Film Stocks to achieve different purposes. The Epic MX has an advanced look the Alexa will suffer to emulate eg. in Sci Fi movies like Prometheus and Elysium. Even the C500 has a a very distinct look to it. A vs B arguments are best reserved for forum fanboys, but in the real world it's smarter to choose the camera that best suites your needs. Only owner operators are looking for the end all be all camera that can satisfy every situation.

 

[Martin Stevens]

"Overwhelmingly better than the MX and the Alexa" really? Of course it has more resolution and DR than the Alexa, so do the F5/f55/f65, but what is constantly being discussed around all forums is that it's not just the DR and resolution that makes the Alexa, there's a whole lot more to it. You have to view these cameras as different Film Stocks to achieve different purposes. The Epic MX has an advanced look the Alexa will suffer to emulate eg. in Sci Fi movies like Prometheus and Elysium. Even the C500 has a a very distinct look to it. A vs B arguments are best reserved for forum fanboys, but in the real world it's smarter to choose the camera that best suites your needs. Only owner operators are looking for the end all be all camera that can satisfy every situation.

Yes, really, as in, I am the type of person that if I see just one more stop of highlight handling on a digital camera I am overjoyed.

 

[Phil Holland]

It saddens me when things take this turn. Phil you make a lot of very valid points. For the foreseeable future there will still be debates about which is the best camera, there's absolutely no doubt about that.
Dragon vs MX sensor>>> most cameras show their best qualities in controlled environments in the hands of people who know what they are doing. This has always been the case. In the above comparison pictures between the dragon and the MX the images are indeed very similar, with the exception of Dynamic Range and mild resolution differences. On the charts however its a different story. I have never seen or used the Dragon before, but from the raw footage I've seen the images are richer than the Epic MX. It's going to be an awesome camera.

Thank you Shash.

There is a difference between the best camera and the best camera for a given project and workflow. It does help when actually showcasing a camera to a prospective client and say this is the best and have the information to back it up. Also, helps inform a purchasing decision for sure.

Epic Dragon right now sits at the top of the mountain of digital cinema technology in terms of it's image quality combined with it's feature set and that's basically all there is to that at the moment. The new OLPF will solidify that even more.

I like that "richer" description. I'm using the term "density", which doesn't mean much in digital space, but it does aptly describe how much more tonal and color information is right there out of the gate with Dragon. It's not so much a "night and day" difference, but a very visible one that can been physically seen in the material out of the camera and even more so in post.

That's all gravy, but what the most important thing to me is does it look right? Does it look pleasing? How do people look under ever lighting and exposure condition? I've posted a few color charts because the numbers are the control in this case and right now there's a lot of "very right" going on with Dragon.

Actually at this very moment with Epic Dragon, more than with the Red One and Scarlet or Epic with MX, I'm happier than ever that I chose to invest in Red cameras and technology. Interestingly enough this has nothing to do with any sort of "fanboying", but has everything to do with my film background and desires for a high resolution multi-format digital cinema camera.

 

[Phil Holland]

Yes, really, as in, I am the type of person that if I see just one more stop of highlight handling on a digital camera I am overjoyed.

You'll be very, very happy with Dragon then (sounds like you are now). It's also more than having that extra room up top, but what the camera does up there is perhaps the most telling difference between Mysterium-X and Dragon. Much more organic. A unique and pleasing character.

 

[shashbugu]

Yes, really, as in, I am the type of person that if I see just one more stop of highlight handling on a digital camera I am overjoyed.

Lol . Well in that respect I'm with you. Highlights are very important. But honestly I personally have never had a problem with the Epic-x highlight retention and roll of. Especially with the FLUT adjustments in Redcine-x.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Last thing i will ever say about this is... Arri dont have Arriuser.net so there isn't a constant source of noise/fodder/bullshit like what we have here on Reduser.

Well, they do have The Arri Digital Camera Forum, which is essentially just about Alexa.

One thing is overwhelming clear... The DRAGON sensor is way better than MX and Alexa.

I think "better" is very subjective and ephemeral. The guys on the CML discussion group argue about this stuff all day long, and I think you'd find their opinions widely vary. No one would say the Dragon is one way or the other. It's just another tool, and there's lots and lots of 4K choices these days. I'm guessing there'll be at least a half-dozen more at NAB in April.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

You'll be very, very happy with Dragon then (sounds like you are now). It's also more than having that extra room up top, but what the camera does up there is perhaps the most telling difference between Mysterium-X and Dragon. Much more organic. A unique and pleasing character.

Yes. Agree 100%

That is why I constantly pound on that to me it s NOT the resolution or added DR in itself I dig, but the "fatness" and saturation in all channels of the image in the whole range (first) and the highlights handling (second) that had me over.
It's the juice, baby, not the pixels...

 

[shashbugu]

Yes. Agree 100%

That is why I constantly pound on that to me it s NOT the resolution or added DR in itself I dig, but the "fatness" and saturation in all channels of the image in the whole range (first) and the highlights handling (second) that had me over.
It's the juice, baby, not the pixels...

 

[Matt W.]

"Overwhelmingly better than the MX and the Alexa" really? Of course it has more resolution and DR than the Alexa, so do the F5/f55/f65, but what is constantly being discussed around all forums is that it's not just the DR and resolution that makes the Alexa, there's a whole lot more to it. You have to view these cameras as different Film Stocks to achieve different purposes. The Epic MX has an advanced look the Alexa will suffer to emulate eg. in Sci Fi movies like Prometheus and Elysium. Even the C500 has a a very distinct look to it. A vs B arguments are best reserved for forum fanboys, but in the real world it's smarter to choose the camera that best suites your needs. Only owner operators are looking for the end all be all camera that can satisfy every situation.

News to me that any of those cameras have more DR than the Alexa. Certainly the F5/55 does not come close, at least a stop short and with ugly shadows/highlights anyway worse tonality throughout.

Interesting how "facts" spread.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

It's not what you see straight out of the camera... As they don't really look that much different with the base REDCOLOR3 lut... its what you can dig out of the dragon RAW files compared to the MX RAW files that makes you say WOW !

Indeed - in a way that makes selling Dragon hard even to existing Red owner ops - it's only when you play with the file that you see the difference most vividly - not just when you watch a Vimeo clip made with Dragon - I think you feel the advantage most while shooting, while worrying less, and that's a bit hard to show in a demo reel. The Dragon advantage is mainly in the difference between what you saw and what you shot, so unless you can look at what was seen, or understand this...

 

[Matt Ryan]

From CML on their new camera comparison test (with current olpf on Dragon):

"Just looking at the first results and of course I rushed to see the
differences between Alexa and Dragon.

Looking at the differences between the top and bottom chips of the DSC
Chroma du Monde chart I can just distinguish the difference between the
bottom two steps at minus 5 stops on both cameras, when we go to the
highlights I can see 5 stops on the Alexa and 4 on the Dragon.

However, the Dragon images are far quieter, a lot lot quieter.

I expect that pretty soon the Dragon will match and maybe surpass the Alexa
for DR.

As far as colour goes I'm still checking but I'm really impressed with the
Dragon so far.


Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based"

 

[Ergin Ozturk]

From CML on their new camera comparison test (with current olpf on Dragon):

"Just looking at the first results and of course I rushed to see the
differences between Alexa and Dragon.

Looking at the differences between the top and bottom chips of the DSC
Chroma du Monde chart I can just distinguish the difference between the
bottom two steps at minus 5 stops on both cameras, when we go to the
highlights I can see 5 stops on the Alexa and 4 on the Dragon.

However, the Dragon images are far quieter, a lot lot quieter.

I expect that pretty soon the Dragon will match and maybe surpass the Alexa
for DR.

As far as colour goes I'm still checking but I'm really impressed with the
Dragon so far.


Cheers

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer
EU Based"

Gunelik are you the one who joined the test?

 

[Sulekh Suman]

More from the same discussion: Geoff Boyle on Testing Dragon DR and color at 5KHDBecause I can't win, it doesn't matter what I do it'll be wrong. I tried to take a middle ground, one where I would test where most people will go. Nobody is going to change all their lenses to get better DR, and does DR change with sensor size? Where it matters, resolution, we tested all cameras at their maximum res. So, in terms of DR and colour what did I take away from the Dragon? Cheers Geoff Boyle FBKS Cinematographer EU Based geoff@cinematography.net Skype geoff.boyle www.gboyle.co.uk Via iPad and fat fingers > On 8 Feb 2014, at 17:05, Mako Koiwai <makofoto@earthlink.net> wrote: > > But why take away the Dragon's advantage ?

 

[luigivaltulini]

you get started ...
I wonder what he will say at the end .... Geoff
I hope Gunleik is already in place ....

 

[Mike P.]

I agree that throwing up your results for everyone to nitpick over is a lose-lose for the tester… While I kind of agree with Boyle in that I don't think resolution matters when testing the characteristics of just a sensor, the problem is that 6k will have perceptibly far less noise (since the grain/pixels/noise is so much finer)… Also makes for better noise reduction results, which would mean being able to dig even more out of the low-end (and/or protecting your highlights further).

Has anyone posted a 4-stops-overexp-skin-brought-back-down-via-post type test? Because a lot of Alexa's strength comes from the results being good, even when the exposure is less than ideal (or just plain wrong). Not saying you'd do it on purpose, but if you can take a shot where everything is blown, and when you bring it down in post it still looks good, that's pretty impressive and Alexa seems to do that the best. I saw Gunliek's MX vs. Dragon overexposure, and I think Phil had one too (taco bell in the background? though not skin), but neither did what Alexa does and I'm not sure they were 4 stops over.

 

[Sulekh Suman]

I wouldn't rush to judgement and wait till he is able to post stills.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi

I was there.
I have no comments to Geoffs findings until I have had time to run my own tests in post. I cannot start until tuesday, but as it is agreed that RAW files from all cameras will be posted, I think it is suffice to say that people will have a chance to check the results.

Also, I can say I can understand why RED re-calibrates the sensor upwards when doing the new OLPF.

I think there were a sound reasoning behind how this test was conducted. And I think all tests are faulty, unless you understand what was tested for. And even then, they can be faulty...

If this turns into a bar-brawl, I will not release my data or comment on anything. Behave and play nice and be respectful.

I will also not run out and make claims about anything before verifying them and explaining them.

I was given all data from the test and agreed on all the methodology, given that we were testing for 1080/UHD delivery.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I wouldn't rush to judgement and wait till he is able to post stills.

Unfortunately they will be in TIFF format so ISO and WB is baked in...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Unfortunately they will be in TIFF format so ISO and WB is baked in...

Nope.

Geoffs analysis will be that, as I guess mine will be.
It is kinda hard to show what we see, without making that "permanent"...

The underlying raw files will be released for everyone to play with

If Geoff does not, I can. I will probably not reeae it ALL, but the extremes and the middles. We shot A LOT of cameras at A LOT of exposures...

 

[luigivaltulini]

Also, I can say I can understand why RED re-calibrates the sensor upwards when doing the new OLPF.

yes, the new OLPF and calibration should close the gap in high lights compared to Alexa.
I would bet that in the shadows Dragon I read more ...
For now I just want to hear what Geoff think about the color of Dragon vs Alexa...