alexa mini VS red weapon the hope is over

[Lorenzo Lalik]

Arri mini will shoot raw and open gate really soon
I 'm all about organic Film looking skintone and i can care less about resolution
that's also why I like the alexa look better than the red dragon look

 

[Nick Morrison]

Arri mini will shoot raw and open gate really soon
I 'm all about organic Film looking skintone and i can care less about resolution
that's also why I like the alexa look better than the red dragon look

Forgive me, but is there any particular reason you are single-mindedly advertising your love for Alexa Mini (over Dragon) on a RED forum?

I take no issue with Alexa Mini (its a great camera), but if you have nothing else to contribute you may find a more responsive audience on another forum...perhaps DVXUser?

 

[Phil Holland]

Arri mini will shoot raw and open gate really soon
I 'm all about organic Film looking skintone and i can care less about resolution
that's also why I like the alexa look better than the red dragon look

Don't do drugs.

Especially when you are still dealing with IR issues.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Most of you guys are missing the point the beauty of the system is that everything is built into it
and working with the Arri wireless lens control is a pure joy
there is nothing like that in the market
I 'm coming from the red scarlet world and let's be honest here this is a very different league

I see what you say, and yet am pretty optimistic as to RED on the parameters you are talking about.
The Raven points in the direction that RCP (which is REDs remote-control protocol and is what Foolcontrol, Optitron, THC/WMD, Movieslate 8 and a lot of other remote applications/units use to control the camera) will be improved on a lot of areas. It is already pretty freaking awesome that you can remotecontrol "everything" including ND (if you have the Motionmount) on your iPhone/iPad with Foolcontrol, and focus if have electronic lenses and a unit like the THC or Optitron2. Now I do agree that with something like the WMD built in, external motors could be controlled, too. Thus the OMOD is appearing, doing exactly that. So with OMOD/ScarletDragon and MotionMount, you shoot 4k+ and have all the functionality you are asking for in Mini. I haven't added the numbers, but just point out that this does the same.

My biggest beef with the control right now is not what you ask for (which I can do with existing cameras today at a pricepoint bellow the Alexa Mini and with a bunch of other upsides to me), but that you cannot record all these controls and metadata from the camera frame-accurately yet, and that the lens-control implementation (for electronic lenses)
1. is configured for too few lenses
2. The info on focus and iris-distance isn't by default flagged to single frames and sent back with the TC-stream for post-work.

Now, that complaint is kinda specific and very far from what you complain about.

The remote functionality of the REDS can be pretty scaringly fantastic already today.
And as mentioned: I think the design decissions of the Raven point in the direction of a lot of focus on improving the RCP and making it even more powerful in the next 4 months.
The way people are migrating towards foolcontrol to control their camera settings, point in the same way, and once you have tried it and thought a bit about the implications, it's hard to go back.

So in a way you are grumbling about functionality you already have (and have had for a while) if you go to the combo of a Scarlet with Motion-EF mount + foolcontrol and THC or Optitron2 (or whatever Mikael is cooking up for remote focus)

I do however agree that that gives you a too limitied lens choice.
Jarreds comment on the future of lenses with built-in motors, point in the direction that RED will work on expanding the compatibility base on that, and the focus on EF mount for Raven makes a lot of sense in that context from what I have seen the last month or so.

That said:
If you want the Mini: Get it and be happy. Noone here is trying to stop you!

 

[Dan Kanes]

Arri mini will shoot raw and open gate really soon
I 'm all about organic Film looking skintone and i can care less about resolution
that's also why I like the alexa look better than the red dragon look

Cool.

go shoot some great stuff And post it online or whatever.

Did you know there is even an Arri forum to talk about this with those guys?

Fantastic stuff! Nothing new we are learning here really.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

I'm a Red owner and i will certainly order this little Raven beast (when other mount options will be available), but let's be honest, if you are looking for that filmic and organic look, Alexa is the way to go. Especially their new Alexa mini which is a sublime beauty at an ugly price (that's its only and really serious problem)..
But don't forget one thing people, the Arri background in Film is huge, that's why their digital cameras are the most "filmic" int the digital market.
Red was born "digital", so here is my conclusion:

-In term of pure "filmic look", Arri is the indisputable winner

-In term of "kickass state of mind, let's open Cinema doors to little hungry people that have stories to tell, and disturb this fu*ck'n industry", Red is the incontestable winner..

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'm a Red owner and i will certainly order this little Raven beast (when other mount options will be available), but let's be honest, if you are looking for that filmic and organic look, Alexa is the way to go. Especially their new Alexa mini which is a sublime beauty at an ugly price (that's its only and really serious problem)..
But don't forget one thing people, the Arri background in Film is huge, that's why their digital cameras are the most "filmic" int the digital market.
Red was born "digital", so here is my conclusion:

-In term of pure "filmic look", Arri is the indisputable winner

-In term of "kickass state of mind, let's open Cinema doors to little hungry people that have stories to tell, and disturb this fu*ck'n industry", Red is the incontestable winner..

In my more recent experiences, cameras are often mixed.
Even in "Alexa" productions, it's not unusual to go to the Dragon for the master wides (just as an example.) And they intercut and grade like you wouldn't have known it. If THAT is what you wish.

 

[Phil Holland]

-In term of pure "filmic look", Arri is the indisputable winner

Have you truly, deeply, and sincerely investigated Dragon and it's Color Science?

I'm happy people enjoy whatever camera they choose, but a broad statement in mere text based on opinion (which I can respect) is one thing.

However, testing against film. Color, Dynamic Range, Resolving Power, etc.... Specifically modern stocks. You may find a different answer.

I guess that's my opinion though. Interestingly, in my situation with my film background, that particular one is what I care about.

I'm not really at war with anybody over this, I still have folks telling me 2008 DSLR video is tops. I'm sure it is for some.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

@ Gunleik: of course we can make them "intercut beautifully", but every brand has its own look, and Alexa is not Dragon at all, we all know that..

@Phil: That's the problem of our digital world : we too much think "technically" and don't listen enough to our "feelings".. On the paper Red Dragon beats film and Arri digital look in an indecent way BUT, just open your eyes guys, Film has this "touch" that Digital has not beat yet. Benoit Debie and a lot of other huge filmmakers i respect have said it before(Nolan/Scorsese/Tarantino and others)

According to Benoit Debie (again), "To render the color precision film can render, Digital camera need to be able to handle a much higher data rate, it's possible in still but not yet in digital motion picture"..

I dont want to debate "Film vs Alexa vs Dragon", all these three supports are great, and they are obviously different..

 

[Lorenzo Lalik]

I own both a dragon scarlet and the mini
the dragon sensor is really weak and need a lot of compromise
the fact that we have 5 different Olpf is already a sign of weakness
the noise level in shadows always been a problem and the red Chanel problem is also another on
There is no perfect camera
But the Arri sensor is ready to go for point and shoot
no black shading no Olpf swap no need extra light for the shadow issue
point and shoot and enjoy
I'm not trying to offend anybody here I have been using red since the last 2 years
I 'm just trying to share my new experience i 'm not a Arri fan
I 'm just a pragmatic person sharing my new experience with the alexa mini

 

[Phil Holland]

@Phil: That's the problem of our digital world : we too much think "technically" and don't listen enough to our "feelings".. On the paper Red Dragon beats film and Arri digital look in an indecent way BUT, just open your eyes guys, Film has this "touch" that Digital has not beat yet. Benoit Debie and a lot of other huge filmmakers i respect have said it before(Nolan/Scorsese/Tarantino and others)

I'm cool with that and those opinions. However, Dragon in itself with it's various characteristics has been the "film replacement" for me. I am literally doing things you cannot do with film on Dragon. I've tested possibly more than anybody I know of in that regard. Both on technical and aesthetic levels.

Now film will always have that "life" due to various reasons and I have a lot of love and respect for that.

After I wrap this job Monday I was thinking about doing a real A/B with film and Weapon, but I don't really need to do this all over again since Epic Dragon's release.

It's all good. i don't enjoy the process of going in circles about certain subjects, and this is one of them, because in the end it's the preference of whatever camera/medium you enjoy. That I can respect, but it's often just a silly war slinging words and not focusing on any camera's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

PDF:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zl8dgmd6jl54hbt/arri-alexa-ev-digital-cinema-camera_0.pdf?dl=0

Almost 7 years old sensor ALEVIII.

 

[Phil Holland]

I own both a dragon scarlet and the mini
the dragon sensor is really weak and need a lot of compromise
the fact that we have 5 different Olpf is already a sign of weakness
the noise level in shadows always been a problem and the red Chanel problem is also another on
There is no perfect camera
But the Arri sensor is ready to go for point and shoot
no black shading no Olpf swap no need extra light for the shadow issue
point and shoot and enjoy
I'm not trying to offend anybody here I have been using red since the last 2 years
I 'm just trying to share my new experience i 'm not a Arri fan
I 'm just a pragmatic person sharing my new experience with the alexa mini

I'll be posting some Weapon .R3Ds in the coming weeks. I received mine several days ago and I've been hard testing and on a shoot yesterday. Dragon is different on Weapon in many ways. The most quality impacting things I've noticed?

- Improved data transfer rates/lower REDCODE RAW compression.
- An improved optical path.
- Cleaner shadows, which actually equates to an overall cleaner image.
- Vastly improved on the "tricky optical artifacts" front.

Black Shading is a whole different situation if you are using Auto Black Shade.

I guess I'm trying to share my experience as well.

 

[Lorenzo Lalik]

I respect you opinion ,
For me I have no interest to shoot film in 2015
like I say before I 'm all about very filmic looking image with beautiful natural skin tone
after testing pretty much every single serious camera in the market included the red dragon
for me there is no more mystery in my mind
Arri is the closet looking image to film by far
i applaud red for designing such a incredible modular system at this price point
but the sensor and the color science is not there yet in my humble opinion
Arri sensor is almost 5 years old and still dominate the market imaging what 's coming up a head

 

[Lorenzo Lalik]

The amazing things about the Arri is the image coming out of the camera are incredibly filmic looking the roll off of the highlight and the texture is incredible without doing anything
when you look at the red dragon footage you need a lot of post production to make it looking decent
that was for me also a huge selling point
red is all about resolution and now they are coming up with 8 k
for me it 's non sense if you are not working with vfx

 

[Phil Holland]

The amazing things about the Arri is the image coming out of the camera are incredibly filmic looking the roll off of the highlight and the texture is incredible without doing anything
when you look at the red dragon footage you need a lot of post production to make it looking decent
that was for me also a huge selling point
red is all about resolution and now they are coming up with 8 k
for me it 's non sense if you are not working with vfx

Sorry man, but this is actually getting weird.

Are you sure you are talking Dragon?

Because it really, really doesn't take "a lot of post production to make it looking decent".

Seriously. Really weird. Dragon has exceptionally accurate and natural color. There's tons of images demonstrating that around.

 

[luigivaltulini]

The amazing things about the Arri is the image coming out of the camera are incredibly filmic looking the roll off of the highlight and the texture is incredible without doing anything
when you look at the red dragon footage you need a lot of post production to make it looking decent
that was for me also a huge selling point
red is all about resolution and now they are coming up with 8 k
for me it 's non sense if you are not working with vfx

It is your humble opinion, rightly so.
But is not the reality. Simply.
If you want to justify your money well spent then we can discuss.
I have owned 3 Alexa, and now I still hold a Ev.
The comparison I should do with Dragon or Weapon, not with Scarlet with that price.
The roll off of Dragon and practically the same, if thou wouldst better than Alexa then you can just use the filters low cow 2 of Kippertie, and you will be happy, simple. And even more organic Alexa. If it is there where you wanted to go.
Be watching for controls integrated WIFI you're right it's a nice system.
But I do the same thing for years ,with Foolcontrol Cinegear, everything going well.
You spent $ 50 thousand and can not import lut3d !! This is a very useful thing to have, if possible, but with the Mini not possibile! con Weapon si..
I did not I would have never spent that money on a mini, I'd buy a nice used Xt or a weapon Cf.
But if you're happy for thee.

I forgot to, another good advice, buy another EVF for what you use on mini or Amira be unwatchable

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The amazing things about the Arri is the image coming out of the camera are incredibly filmic looking the roll off of the highlight and the texture is incredible without doing anything
when you look at the red dragon footage you need a lot of post production to make it looking decent
that was for me also a huge selling point
red is all about resolution and now they are coming up with 8 k
for me it 's non sense if you are not working with vfx

I wouldn't agree on all of this. But I happen to think that both cameras are great.
RED has been the camera I want to own.

But I think the "this camera is filmic and this is not", comes a lot down to exposure/lighting and post practices.
They are matched a lot (alongside the Sony Cinealtas) and are often intercut even in the same scene.

I think for this discussion to not look like pure trolling, you'd better post a few examples. Then we can discuss them. "Better and more filmic" are hardly precise terms.

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

I'm totally with you on the Alexa wireless control (THC needs the redlink), motor (needs a receiver), and ND (motion mount is cool outside, but inside it loose too much light....). and your points were valid until you said those 2 things.

I 'm all about organic Film looking skintone and i can care less about resolution
that's also why I like the alexa look better than the red dragon look

The amazing things about the Arri is the image coming out of the camera are incredibly filmic looking the roll off of the highlight and the texture is incredible without doing anything
when you look at the red dragon footage you need a lot of post production to make it looking decent

Skintone on Dragon are on par with Alexa. Different, not better, not worst. Different film stock, and they can easily match in post.
Dragon actually needs less work than mx. I mean it almost doesn't need work to look natural under bright sunlight. To reach the same filmic look with MX needed indeed a lot of work.
And the highlight roll off on Dragon STH is a wonder.

So I'm guessing you shot with Red MX camera probably Scarlet MX, but not Epic Dragon, or Weapon.

Look at Radiant image shoot out : https://vimeo.com/140441330
It is very simple, very nicely done.
In the end, Weapon, Dragon, Alexa, or F65 are the same top class camera. Some are better in lowlight, some in highlight.
But the one thing good with Red is you can choose your OLPF. It's a strenght not a weakness.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I would also think that opening for swappable OLPFs mostly is a very good thing, as it in a different way than filtering can change the character of the camera for an entire production (consistency).

The downside is if people are used to one OLPF and expect that to be "how it works" while in-fact a different one sits in.

I love what John Marchant is onto here. The H2O (and possibly also the one built by Mr P. A. which creates a bit of controversy) are also special-case OLPFs which can add dramatically to the palette, independently of which approach is "right". Actually I happen to be pretty pragmatic: If your tools get you the result you are looking for, they are "right".