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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

After DRAGON what is developing at RED....????

Luke Neumann said:
I think he means that there should at least be a studio ready option...
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Couldn't they just tell the rental house to spec it out like a "big" camera?
 
I think they should just come out with a new module that solves all of these problems.

It would combine all of the following outputs in one module.

An extra port for an LCD or EVF.
Two to three BNC for vidio out.
Two HDMI outs.
A few 12v outs along with a couple 5v outs.
Timecode BNC's
Two xlr audio ins.
A built in wifi port that works with apps like foolcontrol.

Just build this module and the camera is perfect, IMO. One default module for "studio" use.
 
I would add built-in v-mount/ab plate that sends power through the brain (no cables)... And integrated shoulder pad/arch... AND KNOBS for those XLR ports (going through the menus to adjust pre-amps is weaksauce.) Basically just an Amira module...
 
From my indie viewpoint, RED rules that scene and I think they will continue to support that group, but the growth is somewhere else(realistically the dragon is a way better camera then i need. [ most my issues are with indie story lines and low budget post production problems] )

Even though I don't have any experience in what David Mullen is saying, my gut feel is that scene is were the growth is, so i'd hope the next "new" thing would be for people like him. I'm impressed by the 4k broadcast module, that seems to me to be a great direction for 2015.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I've never used a studio camera that needed HDMI-outs...
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+1 I rather pay double on any accessory than getting something with hdmi on the camera end. But I actually started to like it for off board monitoring. Like on our last shoot I got a bit surprised. I had the bolt on the camera shooting a signal to a my trascan via a BM decklink express to a trashcan for quick video tap on set editing. As I had a little samsung screen as monitor and we had a scratch mic on the camera and the monitor hooked up with a hdmi cable to the trashcan... I had sound coming out from the speakers of the monitor which I have to admit was pretty nice. But on camera and onboard monitors the HDMI connectors and cables are just too unreliable every time I tried they broke or glitch just when they where needed the most. So Im really happy that the hdmi port is occupied by the +1 so it cant be used for anything else. Having the +1 and XL module give enough power outs for me. but as they are current limited I feel that I need to have a vlock solution with Dtap or such ready if people run too much accessories etc. So a new generation of bricks with lemo outs straight from the batteries would be nice as red refuse to use Dtap.
 
DJ Meyer said:
I would submit that Red would not be where it is today without a healthy disregard for "the way things are done."

Viva la modularity!

Why would I want to carry around crap I'm not using?
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Absolutely!,modularity is great if the modules accomplish what you need them to do and are released when the camera is released. How long did it take after Epic's launch for the pro-i/o? Or the +1 module? Modules should have never been an afterthought.
I agree with you that they wouldn't be where they are today without their attitude but that disregard has hurt them in the tv and feature markets so if they want to stay out of those markets and sell to indie's then I guess that they are on the right path.
Todays market is not the one it was when the red one came out, or even when the epic came out. My vote would be for re-designing the camera and then you can put as many K's as you want in it.
 
This is a great thread.

It's all hard to say. What we can do is looks at the trending past and the on going trends of the future.

Modularity is the new thing Red made it happen now Varicam and Sony are doing so in their designs. I don't see it going anywhere.

R&D for Dragon took several years to accomplish so I don't see a new sensor until 2016 unless Red buys third party.

Red has been putting their bet on resolution so expect more pixels.

I predict a FF35 8K Dragon, much like the Alexa 65 they made a larger cut from the platter compared to S35 cut. Dragon & Alexa sensor are pretty identical, your splitting hairs when it comes to sensitivity & dynamic range.

Two new cameras should be released. Epic being larger body than scarlet. Epic will have HiSpeed close to Phantom speeds 200-300fps in 6k/5.5K mode, 60fps @ 8K. Scarlet will stay small form factor working with DSMC, designed for owner ops with 8K FF at speed spec.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Whats the chance for optical viewfinder and 4:3 sensor on next camera? and why not offering 4:3 version of Dragon in future.
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I would rather have a wide aspect ratio sensor that crops to 35mm Full Ap sized 4:3 and 6:5 than just a 4:3 sensor. We don't exactly live in a 4:3 world anymore.
 
The main reason people want a 4:3 sensor is to shoot anamorphic when the real issue is that you'd want a sensor that is 18mm tall more less, the same as 4-perf 35mm film, so that the FOV and the coverage of the anamorphic lens is the same as with 35mm. If the sensor is 18mm tall, then the width doesn't matter... It can be a widescreen sensor, you just would crop it on the sides for anamorphic work.

As for an optical viewfinder, some of the rental houses have told me that it's not a high priority for most renters.
 
I don't care what the next camera is. As long as it comes out soon so I can buy a Dragon at a great discount. Since so many people will be dumping them on the used market.

I would love to pick up a $15k Dragon kit.

I like the others am not too concerned about resolution above 6k. At least for now. I love the dynamic range and the ever improving color science and low noise floor.

I think the main genius of Red for me is the R3d code format. It is so robust and easy to work with. I see some people crying about why their 1984 486 dx2 computer with 2mb's of ram can't edit real time. Get a real professional edit system with high end cuda or open cl cards with lots of ram and a dual core xeon. My system can edit real time 4k footage and it was built cheaply plus a used Red rocket I got from a buddy for $500.

If Red never made another camera they are so ahead of the curve it will take five more years before the Dragon is completely outdated.

So I am just waiting for Red to amaze me again. Whatever it is I am sure it will be awesome and the will come up with something that no one thought of and blow everyone away again.

Keep reaching for the stars Red and make everyone chase you like they have been since 2007.
 
Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:
Dragon & Alexa sensor are pretty identical, your splitting hairs when it comes to sensitivity & dynamic range.
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I would gamble there are quite a few people at Arri and Red who might really disagree with that statement.
 
Everybody knows the story about Henry Ford, who asked one of his managers "Can any of my workers afford to buy my cars?" to which the manager replied "No, sir. On a dollar a day, none can afford them." "How much would they have to earn to afford a car?," Ford asked. "Five dollars a day," the manager replied. "Then pay them five dollars a day." And that is the origin story of good middle class jobs in America. What does that have to do with RED?

Before there was RED, there was digital video, whose image quality sucked (especially when observed frame-by-frame), and there was film, whose image quality was beautiful, but whose costs (financial, logistical, chemical, etc.) were as ugly as could be. The RED ONE revolutionized the industry not only with a Digital Still Motion Camera, but with the creation of an entire ecosystem that made it possible for independent film-makers to become their own studio bosses. When RED ONE came out, the camera was an order of magnitude better than digital video (approx 10x the resolution of 720p) and an order of magnitude cheaper than a film camera. But that would not have been enough to complete the revolution. RED also introduced RED PRO primes, which brought the cost of cine optics down from the stratosphere to the troposphere. This promoted companies like Zeiss to create their own affordable lines, and entrepreneurs like Duclos to re-house existing optics in cine formats we can all afford. As these changes were absorbed by the market, RED pulled out of glass production, doubled down on sensor and imaging technologies, and we got EPIC, Mysterium, DRAGON, etc. Today (or at least very soon) there are more 4K home theaters then there are commercial theaters, and it's easier to find 4K content on YouTube than it is to find it in theaters. RED literally turned the market upside-down, and they did so by making a full 4K system available, not just a camera.

But others have also innovated since then: GoPro and/or GH4 + Gimbal + Drone = 4k imaging from low-cost aerial platform. Yes, there are heavy-lift drones and CF DRAGONs, but let's face it: truly lightweight platforms will rule the skies. DRAGON S16 anybody? Maybe that's the form factor that SCARLET should become...

Another place where costs currently remain prohibitive for the better-off independent owner/operator is ARRI 65 territory, including 120fps HFR production. To my eyes, the 8K-12K resolution space is as daunting--and as exciting--as 4K was back in 2007. And expectations are higher: ASA 320 (or ASA 500) film is no longer the competition. ISO 5000, 10000, and 20000 are. 24fps is wonderful for cinema, but those doing immersive virtual reality are all building 120fps platforms. The data rates will be extraordinary, but guess what? 10Gbps ethernet is now commodity, and 40Gbe-100Gbe fiber is getting common. And if RED wants to blow this space open, it may have to go back into the glass business, just to kick-start a new round glass that can give us the resolution and the beauty that these new platforms will demand. Does RED want to take the fight to this space? I dream of shooting 12K resolution through a 24mm RED PRO-X UltraWide.

Then there's the super HFR space. RED can certainly raise the stakes in temporal resolution even if they don't want to do so in spatial resolution. This is the least exciting to me of the three choices, but it's there.

Or perhaps the answer is "none of the above". Perhaps they are working on some groovy new sensor that won't have higher temporal or spatial resolution, but will instead have much greater color depth and resolution, even greater ISO sensitivity, while using much less power. Maybe the next revolutionary step is just an evolutionary one. I've been a DRAGON user/owner for almost the past year, and I am mightily impressed by its quality and performance. I don't doubt that RED could do a DRAGON-X that is as much better than DRAGON as DRAGON was to its predecessors. I cannot yet say whether "the same, but better" will be compelling to me or not. My head says "maybe!". My heart says "meh". But I will be watching NAB very closely to see what the future might hold!
 
Really enjoying this thread and my mind starts spinning. I think Red cameras are revolutionary and Dragon is a sensor to rely on for many years. I don't think we would have the selection today of digital cameras if it was not for RED. The concept that one camera should do both hi-res still and cinema is brilliant but also deadly hard. Alexa was designed to be the best cinema camera on the planet, no more, no less. Red cameras have a higher goal but this is also harder, specially for a young company with fewer patens to make war with.

My suggestion are pretty obvious. Better sensitivity, more DR, more reliable overall. Some water/dust protection. The Dragon is not really good when shooting in low light in cold conditions- better black shade -temp behavior. Prores-dnxhd recording in camera with some awesome log-curve.

Maybe there could be an option to have large-brain-body with all BNC-XLR-LEMO connectors you could ever want in one durable unit. The carbon version of Dragon is by far the best camera I have used and perfect for hand held use and mounting on octocopters. Just a beautiful-wonderful camera! Then there is the price point and target market. It can't be to low cost without lose cred, profit etc.. and not to expensive to lose the enthusiast and the soul it was born with. Usefulness as a tool. Not have to buy tons of extra junk like woddenc-a-m stuff. Just get the camera, lift it out the box and shoot.

..but what I really wish is that Dragon is the last camera I ever get :)
 
What next???

What next???

Hi
After starting the thread I went underground...just joking ...
But when I visited Reduser today and saw the thread I really
loved it...so much thought and ideas...but one thing we all
will agree that Dragon is good fir next 3 yrs with improvements
being added such as new build with Dragoncolor2 and interchangeable
OLPFs ...
Thanks Red team again....
Harcharan
 
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