After DRAGON what is developing at RED....????

[Luke Neumann]

I see your POV for sure. But you are discounting that the currently pricing model "isn't working" for Red. Based on the shear amount of DSMC bodies out there, I don't think that's the case. But that's up to Red and their bottom and top line really. In terms of 5K and 6K capture systems there isn't too much competition in reality, but there is lots of competition in cameras that "do" 4K. So there's the rub.

Also, just to quote a valid quote:




I personally have wants and desired on what I'd like REDRAY to become and that would make it extremely handy for home, theatrical, and exhibition use. I've been to a few places now and REDRAY has been used in several applications abroad. I do want more optimization when it comes to encoding .RED export and the tools can be tightened up a bit. The players are out there though. Some are running all day long even.


I see a couple of profitable avenues that Red can explore with new product lines that would be useful for all of us and I do think they will be focused on the "core" business of digital motion and stills cameras as well as pushing R&D efforts towards some uncharted territory, though not "out of bounds" territory.

Not discounting it, just saying that they have created "escalation" and now they are getting close to the point where the pricing structure doesn't make sense. That point happened for me earlier this year but it was a tough decision and if they come out with a new camera I will probably grab one. It's in the vicinity though. That's my point.

I wish they would keep working on Redray but make it simply a 4K player. There is still a huge place for that in the market (as crazy as it seems...)

 

[Luke Neumann]

To clarify. I'm not looking for an argument. Simply posting my opinions/thoughts on a thread that asked for them. I like RED products and think the cameras have the best of all worlds. I like that they innovate and push the higher resolutions but that tends to justify them pricing things a little higher and MOST people are fine shooting at 4K right now. So why not offer that as an option. I want your codec, I want your frame rates, I want your DR and color, I don't necessarily want 6K and DEFINITELY don't want to pay for it if I don't plan on using it.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It's all fine. Just discussing POVs.

This is Crystal Bowl land. And it's always fun...

No worries.

It's not like I am right and you are wrong. We just discuss what we see and what we think we see...

 

[Luke Neumann]

It's all fine. Just discussing POVs.

This is Crystal Bowl land. And it's always fun...

No worries.

It's not like I am right and you are wrong. We just discuss what we see and what we think we see...

Totally!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Some things I would like RED to pursue in a Dragon v1.5:
1) Shrinking the ASIC transistors. If they could shrink the die they could cut heat which means less fan noise and less power draw which would mean less power drain. More than half of an Epic's weight is probably usually battery. Whenever I ship my brain back I'm like "WOW this thing is so light!"
2) Abandon Redcode. It used to be necessary but H265 ULTRA or whatever is coming down the pipe is A) Going to be in every piece of hardware going forward from your phone to your high end machine. B) Actually easy to accellerate with hardware unlike the current dependency on JPEG2000. And the quality to bit ratio is pretty comparable with RGB 4:4:4 H265 to JP2k (REDCode). Just because it was the right choice in 2006 doesn't mean it's the right choice nearly a decade later. Time to move on and cut their losses. I can edit 1/8th resolution on a Surface Pro but I could probably edit full resolution on a surface pro with H265. Let people choose between Bayer RAW and RGB RAW.
3) 6k Full Frame. Scale up Dragon at least a little bit to Full Frame. It'll give them probably another half stop of sensitivity and a broader wide angle portfolio at 6k to pick from.
4) Integrated 802.11 AC and IP Server. Make REDLink Wifi built in so that we don't need to strap anything to the body. Also give us an external antenna port. Add an H264 encoding chip (they're ridiculously small these days) and on the same IP address as the camera offer a 1080p and 720p H264 stream so that smartphone/tablet control apps have a real-time feed.
5) Create a "Standard IO" Module that doesn't need a +1. Put an extra 1-2 SDI ports and XLR ports on it.
6) Alternately Replace the right rear panel with a removeable panel that reveals a pad of contact points just like the Sidehandle/Switchblade (*cough rename sidewinder *cough*). The contact pads would have Audio, HDMI, SDI and Serial and Ethernet contact points. By bolting on a new side panel you could add an IO module to the side of the camera behind the Switchblade with full sized XLR or mini XLR or whatever the market requests. Since the contact pads are "Dumb" you don't need RED's permission or any sort of SDK, it's just a fancy way to plug things in.
7) Fix CMOS row smear with more intelligent firmware/Dragon v1.1 hardware fixes when moving to FF.
8) Integrate Phase Detection AF into the larger Dragon sensor.
9) Monitor fucking flip and flop.
10) Idle-offload capability over Wifi/Ethernet.
11) Add USB3.1 capability for future proofing Wifi/Ethernet.
12) Consider using something mass market available like USB for replacing low voltage power. (e.g. way better than P-Tap).

 

[Phil Holland]

2) Abandon Redcode. It used to be necessary but H265 ULTRA or whatever is coming down the pipe is A) Going to be in every piece of hardware going forward from your phone to your high end machine. B) Actually easy to accellerate with hardware unlike the current dependency on JPEG2000. And the quality to bit ratio is pretty comparable with RGB 4:4:4 H265 to JP2k (REDCode). Just because it was the right choice in 2006 doesn't mean it's the right choice nearly a decade later. Time to move on and cut their losses. I can edit 1/8th resolution on a Surface Pro but I could probably edit full resolution on a surface pro with H265. Let people choose between Bayer RAW and RGB RAW.

REDCODE will likely advance rather than go away. I can't fathom Red dropping the concept all together. That would be silly. And there are still advantages particularly when comparing it to H.265.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

To clarify. I'm not looking for an argument. Simply posting my opinions/thoughts on a thread that asked for them. I like RED products and think the cameras have the best of all worlds. I like that they innovate and push the higher resolutions but that tends to justify them pricing things a little higher and MOST people are fine shooting at 4K right now. So why not offer that as an option. I want your codec, I want your frame rates, I want your DR and color, I don't necessarily want 6K and DEFINITELY don't want to pay for it if I don't plan on using it.

Luke is pointing something really important here, the "extra resolution" is something most people don't need, it definitely makes sense to have this "6k" option, but it makes more senss to have the choice between "having this option and not". Paying for something i don't need, at this price range, it's pretty though..

So yes, having a 4k Scarlet Dragon at 7000$ would be something really great.. But with the arrival of the sony Fs7, the open source Apertus camera, probably a new "raw video firmware" to the GH4 (and maybe A7s), and the Varicam dangerously coming in the market, prices should decrease in the next 12 months..

Ps: for those who have some doubts about the Varicam and its "2 native iso", here is a proof:

It's in french, sorry, but the guy explains that for the nights shots, he used Nd filters because of the "too much light" hitting the sensor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-n6Gwk4yY

And here is an impressive direct test in english this time
https://vimeo.com/112329673

..

 

[Brian Boyer]

It'd be nice if they were working on a more comfortable DSMC Side Handle. You get used to the current one but it kills the area between the thumb and forefinger for the first couple of days.

 

[Paul Schneider]

A good roadmap for RED would be:

Drop Scarlet, lower Epic price. All focus on one camera, no internal conflicting interests between customer groups.

No re-buys or crazy rebates. You're a RED owner and want to upgrade your RED? Sell the other one yourself. RED expands user base, which in turn increases knowledge about system.

Current resolution is good. Overkill for film, but good for the stills side. Make the stills side work: should be possible to "mark" a point in the footage as a "still/photo moment". Handles can be included and user defined, e.g. a "photo" can be 24 frames of footage. These "photos" (including handles) should be easy to filter out and export as a new project.

Don't be greedy regarding sensor performance. Quality before quantity. Less PC overlocking mentality. More Apple/Mac "it just works" (not looking for a debate on this, just an illustration that everyone understands).

Look into auto focus systems similar to Canon Dual Pixel AF. Don't need it? Then don't use it.

Look into lowering prices on accessories and SSDs to bring them closer to actual part costs.

RED doesn't have to drop the Hollywood heritage, but it has become more of an INDIE/commercial owner operated camera. Align with that business. Grow it exponentially.

I own a Canon 1Dc. The RED system offers a few things compared to that camera. And brings many, many downsides. Make a camera I want to buy.

Agree with all of this.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i want a 'fridge module...its like an alexa, no blackshading ever...

 

[Wil Wong]

Huh... Okay, I already added my wishlist of things 'not invented yet' earlier in the thread but since the discussion has added talking about the current ecosystem, I'll give my thoughts on that too. So, changes to the current ecosystem for the post Dragon era:

1. Move away from needing a Module adapter. What purpose other then another thing to have to buy.
2. Red Volts last 2 hours and can be charge immediately when drained (not when cooled down).
3. Yes, keep improving on making the internal chips and board lighter. This is probably the top request. Lighter camera.
4. Eliminate the need for Black balance
5. Well this was on my previous list but 'no fan'. The camera stays cold when shooting
6. Love the carbon fibre body. Wish it wasn't so expensive. May not be any way around that.
7. Red V-mount batteries that are at the same height as the Epic/Scarlet - not so high as the current bricks AND lighter.
8. Wireless: audio in/out, video/hdmi out, wifi redlink stuff, bluetooth for headphones and speakers
9. Next generation body to have mini/regular xlr or AES...not 3.5 miniplug.
10. Try to follow industry standards and avoid creating a new one (like with your dovetail plates). No reason unless you can improve on it.

Finally, I would love to see a firesale on everything that red plans to move away from or to reduce stock. A large inventory cost companies space and money to manage. Hope red will have sales to reduce any surplus or reduce their quantity. Here's hoping! You don't need to have a set of Everything under your brand if there is comparable items out there for sale. There's no need anymore.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

REDCODE will likely advance rather than go away. I can't fathom Red dropping the concept all together. That would be silly. And there are still advantages particularly when comparing it to H.265.

They can call it REDCode just like they call JP2k REDCode. But I think it's time to move off of commodity JP2K hardware to commodity H265 hardware. JP2K is so niche and specialty that the cards are slow and expensive. There is still room for RED to tweak the encoder like x264 vs MainConcept vs Divx. They can also keep all of their current channel and bayer pre-processing. They'll also still need their custom container format for meta-data and audio. So it will still be "REDCode" but I vote we move away from wavelet. There's a reason a top of the line i7 machine can't handle 6k REDCode and that's JP2k. A gaming laptop or average high-end gaming rig could handle 6k with H265.

 

[Brian Merlen]

ok to take this thread more seriously for a second:


id love red to make a 70mm camera that is rock solid out the gate, no bugs, olpf issues, etc, and a sweet set of glass for it, plus it does high speed like a phantom, faster=less sensor. costs a million or w/e idc its not meant to be for the mainstream...

id like it if red let me do pro bono QC for them...let me play with the new models and firmwares to break them...or if not me, other techs... don't release stuff as readily until you really try to break it...a lot of the anti red talk by arri and sony fans could be stopped if we didn't have OLPF issues happen, or fan issues, or needing right angle bnc adaptors instead of being standard...stupid nonsense...stuff that gets fixed...but it shouldn't have to get fixed publicly, you need like 100 phil hollands on retainer... lol... nah but for real id break the hell outta beta stuff if you let me, and together we can fix it! I've helped a lot of companies patch stuff in that i report bugs and follow up..even with red i make them deal with every glitch i can cuz it just makes stuff more solid for us all..

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

id like it if red let me do pro bono QC for them...let me play with the new [...] firmwares to break them..

That's what the beta firmware releases are for.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Rather than split their line into a low and high-end market, if they are going to make more than one camera, I'd prefer they split it into the physically small and less small pro-only market, the smaller size for the people that want to shoot stills with it and need less video features (or need a specialty camera for shots where the body has to be super-small), and the larger size for the people who mainly make movies, TV shows, and do ENG/EFP work on the camera, with all the standard connectors that everyone desires, and big enough to manage heat / air flow gracefully with minimal fan noise. If that makes it a bit fatter than the current Epic, that's fine if they are going to make a smaller camera that is closer to being for stills.

I don't think the current Epic body is too large, it's already an awkward size to rig for handheld shoulder-mount work, making it smaller isn't going to make it easier to balance on your shoulder. But the current size is manageable if you get the right rigs, but if they could add an inch onto the back to allow more connectors, and more room internally for better cooling, I think that would be fine with me... because I'm not trying to hold the camera out in front of me like a DSLR.

But making the camera slightly larger sort of then suggests they should also make a smaller version for the guys shooting stills with it or have other needs for a tinier body, they just may have to accept more limitations in higher frame rates or other things that increase heat.

Maybe the technology will improve to allow a 5K chip to run at 1000 fps with a global shutter for an hour straight inside a tiny body with no heat problems, but I don't think that is only one generation away from being practical and affordable. And you still run into the real estate problem for connectors and other commonplace attachments if you make the body really small. Do you see two XLR connectors plus four BNC ins and outs on a Sony A7S body?

 

[Jonathan Yonkers]

I cant speak for RED and say what they should do, but I can say, what I would love RED to come up with that I would love for what I need:

I would love a full frame 5d style camera that has the chip of the Dragon. No need for huge resolution or high speed for video. Just great resolution for stills, 4k compressed raw @ 24p, 60p @2k. No need for high speed or fancy anything. Make it cost $5k and sell a trillion of them. I will buy 3 please!

 

[Jonathan Yonkers]

I love David Mullen's comments. Make a great still camera that shoots insane video but is better for stills in mind and then, make different camera that is for cinema, but, also, can shoot insane stills, so say, a 5D with a Dragon heart and an Alexa that also spits cover shots!

 

[Luke Neumann]

Rather than split their line into a low and high-end market, if they are going to make more than one camera, I'd prefer they split it into the physically small and less small pro-only market, the smaller size for the people that want to shoot stills with it and need less video features (or need a specialty camera for shots where the body has to be super-small), and the larger size for the people who mainly make movies, TV shows, and do ENG/EFP work on the camera, with all the standard connectors that everyone desires, and big enough to manage heat / air flow gracefully with minimal fan noise. If that makes it a bit fatter than the current Epic, that's fine if they are going to make a smaller camera that is closer to being for stills.

I don't think the current Epic body is too large, it's already an awkward size to rig for handheld shoulder-mount work, making it smaller isn't going to make it easier to balance on your shoulder. But the current size is manageable if you get the right rigs, but if they could add an inch onto the back to allow more connectors, and more room internally for better cooling, I think that would be fine with me... because I'm not trying to hold the camera out in front of me like a DSLR.

But making the camera slightly larger sort of then suggests they should also make a smaller version for the guys shooting stills with it or have other needs for a tinier body, they just may have to accept more limitations in higher frame rates or other things that increase heat.

Maybe the technology will improve to allow a 5K chip to run at 1000 fps with a global shutter for an hour straight inside a tiny body with no heat problems, but I don't think that is only one generation away from being practical and affordable. And you still run into the real estate problem for connectors and other commonplace attachments if you make the body really small. Do you see two XLR connectors plus four BNC ins and outs on a Sony A7S body?

Yes, sorry if I didn't make that clear. A new body would almost be necessary I think. I totally agree with you.

I don't know how feasible this is but put the 4K Scarlet sensor in a DSLR type body, strip it of most of its features, and come up with a decent battery/media solution to match. Would this sacrifice Scarlet sales? Probably. I just feel like the current Scarlet MX is in no mans land and isn't a great option anymore but it COULD be a great option at a lower price point. It wouldn't cannibalize Dragon sales (Epic or Scarlet) and it would open up an entirely new market.

I just know I would personally love to see it and I would have two in my kit.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Red is a young company. Currently they still play a strong role in cinema land, but mainly stereo 3D. But with the idea to develop a DMSC system that suites for anyone interested in good pictures things are bit unclear what Red actually is. I strongly feel that one has to decide which sport one concentrates on to be become a champ. There's a filmmaking photography crowd, hybrids, increasingly common in commercial land. They own Canon DSLRs and look at cameras from this perspective:

I own a Canon 1Dc. The RED system offers a few things compared to that camera. And brings many, many downsides. Make a camera I want to buy.

Agree with all of this.

Then there is me, I never shoot photos for living, I only use cameras for filmmaking because I'm a filmmaker. I shot many, many miles film on various Arris for living over 20 years now. This is what I need:

I want to drop the camera on the tripod, put it on my shoulder, hold it in my hands, and put i down on the floor - all performed in seconds - like I did with my Arri SR.

And this what I've got:

No problem really with the Epic. I added the PlusOne Module, battery pack at the end of the PlusOne module, lightweight rods, the EVF on a sturdy x EFV support system and the 16-42 DP zoom lens. This gives a fairly usable handheld configuration, similar to handle like the SR with the Canon 8-64 lens. Its a kilo or so heavier, but not much more. IMHO, less is more, no shoulder "mounts" needed. Just drop the camera on the shoulder, hold it on the rods and/or the follow focus and balance it with your eye/EVF. If you push the EVF 10cm to the front the camera won't be front-heavy.

This is what I fear will eventually come because the high-end film/TV market is pretty small:

...Red will leave the cinema and high-end TV market. Arri's dominance will be even stronger than today, not much room left.

Since Arri had their astounding come back in 2011/2012 this is happing around me for years now:

....When people have a bigger budget and need a professional camera, they generally go for the trusted names in that industry, they don't give preference to the companies that made the cheaper cameras they were raised on. I learned how to make films by shooting on a Sankyo Super-8 camera, but that doesn't mean I wish Sankyo had made a 35mm camera so I could pick that company over Panavision and ARRI.

Naturally this will happen:

...In 2016 Arri will bring a 5k camera to market that will deliver pristine 4k RGB with a DR clearly above 16 stops and a breath-taking colour fidelity at 1600 ISO virtually noise-free in a S-35mm sensor, matching anamorphics perfectly. The form factor will be smaller, more like the Amira, lighter, smaller, and a benchmark regarding handling and ergonomics. Price-wise it will be settled in the 30-40k range.

Which is a very different market to this:

I agree with the general idea, but I think $3000 is way too low. I DO think that RED should offer something to all the C100 buyers. RED's solution could even be slightly more expensive, but it would have to be shoot ready at that price, including handle and monitor.

Personally, in 2105 (basically) the entire RED line is a little over priced and the competition simply looks better from my financial standpoint. A few less specs, but I am confident enough in my DP skills that I can make up for that and save myself $5,000. That's just me being honest.

Red is a comparable small company, with resources that are limited. They will have to decide what the heading is:

I don't think any one camera design is going to satisfy everyone.

In 2016 the user base of Red cameras will be much less heterogeneously. Indie filmmakers, young hopefuls, photographers, commercial directors, rental shops, blockbuster DPs, etc..were all fascinated by the idea of digital filmmaking - based on different perspectives. But this was 2008. The market is very different today and Red must find an answer to get a solid position. History shows that the original inventor or marketer of new technology often will be left out in the then following shake-out.



Hans

 

[Luke Neumann]

In 2016 the user base of Red cameras will be much less heterogeneously. Indie filmmakers, young hopefuls, photographers, commercial directors, rental shops, blockbuster DPs, etc..were all fascinated by the idea of digital filmmaking - based on different perspectives. But this was 2008. The market is very different today and Red must find an answer to get a solid position. History shows that the original inventor or marketer of new technology often will be left out in the then following shake-out.
Hans

Great post Hans. I completely agree.