ADOBE SAYS "NO !" TO THE PEOPLE

[Elsie N]

I don't get the outrage over this. Most users I know update their software every year anyway. Same cost. Less hassle. You never "owned" your Adobe software anyway. It has always been a license.

Of course there are pockets of Adobe customers who have no problem with the subscription. But if you read the posts here and on the Internet, you may see there are many business models other than the one you follow.

 

[Noel R.]

I don't get the outrage over this. Most users I know update their software every year anyway. Same cost. Less hassle. You never "owned" your Adobe software anyway. It has always been a license.

The outrage comes because prior to the cloud people had complete control of their files without having to pay Adobe in order to open them. We also had the CHOICE whether or not we wanted to update which gave power to the consumer. We don't have the power anymore to make an informed purchasing decision. Once you use the cloud to use the new Dragon updated SDK or a new 4K codec you are stuck, there is no going back. You are no longer making an informed purchase decision, your decision is now based on a company holding you by your balls. They could come out with a thousand updates you don't want or need, but you have to pay anyway and they can keep raising prices. It's a scheme that will negatively affect the consumer in the long run.

 

[Mike Harrington]

I don't get the outrage over this. Most users I know update their software every year anyway. Same cost. Less hassle. You never "owned" your Adobe software anyway. It has always been a license.

Fisrt off Matt...we did own the software
http://www.adobe.com/support/service/transowner.html

Autodesk found ths out the hard way when they tried to stop an ebay seller from reselling his legally owned autocad licenses. The supreme court agreed with the seller.
The lawyers will fill the EULA with all sorts of stuff to protect the ass of Adobe, Autodesk....doesnt mean they hold up in court.

A subscription masquerading as a cloud however will eliminate any resale of adobe software, just as if you bought a DVD you could sell it...but not with a rental

Second
How does upgrades going from $360-$600 a year equal same cost...I have upgraded since CS3...Production Premium....I don't care to have dreamweaver.....I am not in that line of work

 

[Mike Harrington]

well, looks like autodesk subsequently got this overturned....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.

the initial court ruling was the one I was referring too
The court held that when the transfer of software to the purchaser materially resembled a sale (non-recurring price, right to perpetual possession of copy) it was, in fact, a "sale with restrictions on use"[1] giving rise to a right to resell the copy under the first-sale doctrine.

Either way, a subscription model completely does away with second hand software...plugging another small revenue hole.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I don't get the outrage over this. Most users I know update their software every year anyway. Same cost. Less hassle. You never "owned" your Adobe software anyway. It has always been a license.

You miss the point.

1. This is not a license vs ownership issue. The issue is with a time-limited subscription license. The current licensing (which is not time-limited) is fine.

2. No company I have worked for (and I have used Adobe products since Photoshop 3.0) has ever updated their Adobe software every year. The feature trickle is usually just too slow (the last few versions of Premiere are perhaps an exception). Heck - we just finished Iron Man 3 and Thor 2 trailer titles on After Effects CS5.5!

3. How do you know what the cost will be in 5 / 10 / 50 years' time? Or that the product will even still exist?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Elsie N]

Something else to consider, even for those who like the cloud, is where Adobe will put their resources. If they see a segment of their software offerings to be more popular, will they concentrate resources to that segment and perhaps only do nominal updates on the rest, if at all?

If you are a 2 or 3 app user, you could be subscribing to software that doesn't really change year over year. What I'm saying is, in the cloud you may be paying what you consider a reasonable price for regular updates but maybe for updates that don't happen. If you owned a perpetual license you wouldn't pay anything because there would be no new software released.

 

[chris morgan]

The outrage comes because prior to the cloud people had complete control of their files without having to pay Adobe in order to open them. We also had the CHOICE whether or not we wanted to update which gave power to the consumer. We don't have the power anymore to make an informed purchasing decision. Once you use the cloud to use the new Dragon updated SDK or a new 4K codec you are stuck, there is no going back. You are no longer making an informed purchase decision, your decision is now based on a company holding you by your balls. They could come out with a thousand updates you don't want or need, but you have to pay anyway and they can keep raising prices. It's a scheme that will negatively affect the consumer in the long run.

this is a great explanation of the fundamental issues i (and, i'd imagine, many others) find wrong with this. although i'd say it negatively affects the customer from the first CC payment.

i've calmed down about this more. adobe doesn't want to provide the product i want. that sucks, because i loved the CS workflow, but i've learned about so many other tools that are going to require a big learning curve, but will ultimately improve my results. i'll miss after effects (once i transition away from CS6 that is) because i've become so comfortable with it. but it's just a tool. other companies make even more capable (albeit more complicated) tools that this will prompt me to now move to.

and hopefully other companies have seen the disaster that this is, even if adobe hasn't.

 

[Elsie N]

...

and hopefully other companies have seen the disaster that this is, even if adobe hasn't.

This may be the biggest benefit we get from the CC.

 

[David McGavran]

You miss the point.

1. This is not a license vs ownership issue. The issue is with a time-limited subscription license. The current licensing (which is not time-limited) is fine.

2. No company I have worked for (and I have used Adobe products since Photoshop 3.0) has ever updated their Adobe software every year. The feature trickle is usually just too slow (the last few versions of Premiere are perhaps an exception). Heck - we just finished Iron Man 3 and Thor 2 trailer titles on After Effects CS5.5!

3. How do you know what the cost will be in 5 / 10 / 50 years' time? Or that the product will even still exist?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Hi Bruce,

I don't want to ignore your concerns. It is definitely a change and people are concerned with that. I do appreciate that. However, as a customer of technology a lot of these concerns about 5, 10, 50 years is an interesting argument to think about. I have tons of software in a box that I own that I could never use again. Mac OS Classic apps, Mac 32 bit apps, Mac apps that use deprecated Carbon api's, etc. What will be deprecated in 5 years? Just reading the public deprecated lists in the mac os gives some hints. Premiere and other Adobe apps spent probably 30 percent of their effort keeping the apps running on modern OS/hardware. So just to keep say CS 6 around you will probably have to put that hardware in a closet in 5 years with the install on it to ever open a project on it again (and hope the hardware keeps working). (that is just a prediction and it might be closer to 6 or 7 years). I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, Apple TV, Kindle etc... If they raise their prices or cancel the authentication all that content is at risk for me.... So the best choice as a customer is constantly moving my data from one standard to the next as new storage/standards move forward. I don't keep movie files around in cinepak anymore I retranscode them to h.264 or something like that. I have a ton of DV tapes that I don't have access to because my camera broke The bottom line is the tech industry moves very fast. None of us can predict the OS, hardware, or technology we will be working on in 5 or 10 years. How can we assume what the project format should look like? So from the Premiere team we do our best to give you options on how to store your content or update the way you store your content as we move forward. We also give access to the data of the project format to plugin vendors who can also help with this. We are about as open as possible with the data your store in our app and we will continue to do that.

I know this doesn't talk to your concern but it is my 2 cents when people try and predict what happens in 5 years..

Cheers

Dave

 

[Andy White]

Hi Bruce,

I don't want to ignore your concerns. It is definitely a change and people are concerned with that. I do appreciate that. However, as a customer of technology a lot of these concerns about 5, 10, 50 years is an interesting argument to think about. I have tons of software in a box that I own that I could never use again. Mac OS Classic apps, Mac 32 bit apps, Mac apps that use deprecated Carbon api's, etc. What will be deprecated in 5 years? Just reading the public deprecated lists in the mac os gives some hints. Premiere and other Adobe apps spent probably 30 percent of their effort keeping the apps running on modern OS/hardware. So just to keep say CS 6 around you will probably have to put that hardware in a closet in 5 years with the install on it to ever open a project on it again (and hope the hardware keeps working). (that is just a prediction and it might be closer to 6 or 7 years). I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, Apple TV, Kindle etc... If they raise their prices or cancel the authentication all that content is at risk for me.... So the best choice as a customer is constantly moving my data from one standard to the next as new storage/standards move forward. I don't keep movie files around in cinepak anymore I retranscode them to h.264 or something like that. I have a ton of DV tapes that I don't have access to because my camera broke The bottom line is the tech industry moves very fast. None of us can predict the OS, hardware, or technology we will be working on in 5 or 10 years. How can we assume what the project format should look like? So from the Premiere team we do our best to give you options on how to store your content or update the way you store your content as we move forward. We also give access to the data of the project format to plugin vendors who can also help with this. We are about as open as possible with the data your store in our app and we will continue to do that.

I know this doesn't talk to your concern but it is my 2 cents when people try and predict what happens in 5 years..

Cheers

Dave

Yes, but the issue is simple (IMO). I still have software (PC) from 10 years ago - even longer, and it still runs... and i can still open files/save etc.

Now, with this implementation of CC 'only' (and please correct me if I am wrong!), any file I open/close/save in the CC version will NOT open on any previews version of the software.

This means that any work done on the new CC version, will only be accessible if I keep a current CC licence going. That means, once I drop the licence, I can't access any of my files - and would need to pay a fee (ie a month) to open them and work on them again.

This is the heart of the issue - not the ownership of the software - but the ownership of the files/data... as, in essence, if I cannot open program specific files that I or a studio have created with CC software then these files aren't mine. if they were 'mine' I could open them - but, of course, this would mean i have to have a CC licence active... and that's the full circle/argument issue that's at point here.

So, no workarounds etc - I would simply wish to be able to open files I've created - rather than be locked out of them. That's why people have been suggesting a 'buyout' version, that would leave a functional (but no longer updatable) version on your machine.

I know this isn't your call Dave - just my view on this.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Hi Bruce,

I don't want to ignore your concerns. It is definitely a change and people are concerned with that. I do appreciate that. However, as a customer of technology a lot of these concerns about 5, 10, 50 years is an interesting argument to think about. I have tons of software in a box that I own that I could never use again. Mac OS Classic apps, Mac 32 bit apps, Mac apps that use deprecated Carbon api's, etc. What will be deprecated in 5 years? Just reading the public deprecated lists in the mac os gives some hints. Premiere and other Adobe apps spent probably 30 percent of their effort keeping the apps running on modern OS/hardware. So just to keep say CS 6 around you will probably have to put that hardware in a closet in 5 years with the install on it to ever open a project on it again (and hope the hardware keeps working). (that is just a prediction and it might be closer to 6 or 7 years). I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, Apple TV, Kindle etc... If they raise their prices or cancel the authentication all that content is at risk for me.... So the best choice as a customer is constantly moving my data from one standard to the next as new storage/standards move forward. I don't keep movie files around in cinepak anymore I retranscode them to h.264 or something like that. I have a ton of DV tapes that I don't have access to because my camera broke The bottom line is the tech industry moves very fast. None of us can predict the OS, hardware, or technology we will be working on in 5 or 10 years. How can we assume what the project format should look like? So from the Premiere team we do our best to give you options on how to store your content or update the way you store your content as we move forward. We also give access to the data of the project format to plugin vendors who can also help with this. We are about as open as possible with the data your store in our app and we will continue to do that.

I know this doesn't talk to your concern but it is my 2 cents when people try and predict what happens in 5 years..

Cheers

Dave

Thank you David. You have hit the nail on the head.

You don't need to keep the hardware in a closet though.

You could probably get away with:
1. A disk image of the installer for your app & plugins (with serial numbers)
2. A disk image of the OS installer
3. A virtual machine

There will definitely be a virtual machine capable of running my old version of Premiere or After Effects in 50 years' time.

Right now I can use DOSbox to fire up DeluxePaint Animation and load project files I made in 1990.

Heck, I can still open stuff I coded in Logo on a ColecoVision in 1987... and run it!

I disagree that we constantly need to move data from one standard to the next.

Your CinePak files will be accessible for the rest of human history through emulation, methinks.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Bruce Allen]

I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, Apple TV, Kindle etc... If they raise their prices or cancel the authentication all that content is at risk for me....

Buying music via iTunes: you can download it, DRM-free. It's yours - and you don't have to be pay Apple to play it 10 years later. Heck, you can upload the .mp3 to Google Music... play it on your Android device if you want to. Whatever you want.

Buying movies via Apple TV: no, Apple can't remotely disable all of the movies you already bought on Apple TV.

Buying books via Kindle: yes, I do remember when Amazon unintentionally sold pirated copies of 1984 to customers... then remotely wiped them. There was an uproar and Amazon pledged to not do that again:

"Amazon says it won't repeat Kindle book recall"
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10290047-56.html

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Matt Doane]

The subscription model also means you could open up legacy projects for much cheaper. I currently have inDesign using the subscription, but I only need it about twice a year. During those months I pay $35 instead of the full retail price. Then I let it lapse until I need it again.

 

[Matt Doane]

You are no longer making an informed purchase decision, your decision is now based on a company holding you by your balls.

Adobe has held us by the balls for a long time. Photoshop in particular has a clear monopoly.

 

[Brian Anderson]

Did anyone sign up for adobe creative cloud from NAB under the NAB_REVEAL or NAB_PROMO link??
I'm having trouble trying to figure this problem out with their customer service from India.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The unfortunate reality here is that in the eyes of the current social media entitlement generation, the concepts of dependency, control and debt have little meaning...

Apparently.
That's why required lessons get repeated until learned, and meaning appears after the lesson is learned.

In some cases usually followed by a palette of sour facial expressions emerging in the moment of realization.
Mostly affected are the mouth, lower part of cheeks and eyes. Sometimes forehead also.

When it all comes down to it, we're all just going to have to sign up sooner or later because Adobe has us by the balls.

It is understandable why it may seem that way. If all legacy products suddenly became unusable, and if all tool creating talent left on the planet had insufficient competency or did not recognize the opportunity, and if no current talent ever left, this perception would be closer to the truth.

In this case, balls on the spotlight are the company management ones, nicely positioned on the chopping block.

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

Autodesk Smoke 2013 is AWESOME!!!

 

[Mark Toia]

Autodesk Smoke 2013 is AWESOME!!!

and sadly soooooo sloooooooooooow....

 

[Josh C]

and sadly soooooo sloooooooooooow....

I opened it for the first time the other day and was shocked how much slower it was when doing comparable tasks. Went straight back to CS5.5.

Guess I need better hardware to run Smoke.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Dave, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, but I would say, in this day and age, an average creative user, who deals with both cinema and stills, is likely to have in excess in two computers It seems to me that if a customer is willing to play by the rules and pay the cc fee monthly, they should be given the benefit of the doubt for 3 or 4 machines.

This has always been one of my issues with DRM of any kind -- that legit users get penalized, while pirates enjoy nothing but smooth sailing. If a person pirates CC, they can put it on 3 or 4 machines, no problem. But if I actually pay, I am restricted to 2 machines. See what I mean? I believe that paying customers should always be given the benefit of the doubt... within reason. This is something that Adobe has generally been very good about... one of the reasons I love Adobe.