Adobe 1998 Color Profile: Why? (so blue)

[Carlo Pisani]

Red advises to use Adobe 1998 color profile in their literature. I trust it as the best color profile to view Red footage, but why the gui (and the footage) all looks very blue?
If anyone knows more about the technical reasons behind this choice please advise.

Thanks.

 

[jake blackstone]

Red advises to use Adobe 1998 color profile in their literature. I trust it as the best color profile to view Red footage, but why the gui (and the footage) all looks very blue?
If anyone knows more about the technical reasons behind this choice please advise.

Thanks.

Where did you get this information from?

 

[Brook Willard]

Early footage and still releases were built for Adobe 1998. I'd say that ship has sailed, personally. Just calibrate your monitor to 2.2 gamma and you'll be fine.

 

[Carlo Pisani]

Where did you get this information from?

From Red Build 17 pdf Manual, page 76:

"Software Tools
RED Digital Cinema provides a variety of software tools to aid postproduction. For proper color
rendition using a Macintosh OSX computer, your monitor should be set to Adobe 1998, or to
SMPTE-C display profile. If you use the HD Cinema display profile, adjust the gamma to 2.2."

 

[jake blackstone]

From Red Build 17 pdf Manual, page 76:

"Software Tools
RED Digital Cinema provides a variety of software tools to aid postproduction. For proper color
rendition using a Macintosh OSX computer, your monitor should be set to Adobe 1998, or to
SMPTE-C display profile. If you use the HD Cinema display profile, adjust the gamma to 2.2."

Whenever you're doing video work you should always use Rec-709 profile for your monitor settings. That means gamma 2.2 and white point D-65, which corresponds to x-0.3127 and y-0.3290 with nominal white point Luminance Y = 80cd/m2. The Adobe RGB (1998) color image encoding has a color gamut that is larger than sRGB (IEC 61966–2.1) and encompasses typical press gamuts. That's what it's primarily designed for. So, make your life easier and just use the Rec-709 or SMPTE-C display profiles, as they are nearly identical for the purpose of display viewing, unless you're doing DI for DCI or Film work.

 

[Carlo Pisani]

Whenever you're doing video work you should always use Rec-709 profile for your monitor settings. That means gamma 2.2 and white point D-65, which corresponds to x-0.3127 and y-0.3290 with nominal white point Luminance Y = 80cd/m2. The Adobe RGB (1998) color image encoding has a color gamut that is larger than sRGB (IEC 61966–2.1) and encompasses typical press gamuts. That's what it's primarily designed for. So, make your life easier and just use the Rec-709 or SMPTE-C display profiles, as they are nearly identical for the purpose of display viewing, unless you're doing DI for DCI or Film work.

Thanks a lot for the response.

But for its tonal response I prefer to work under Redspace. Thus what is the best display profile that I should use?

 

[wop]

Has always looked way too blue to me also...

 

[Jannard]

One of the single biggest problems in this industry is color space and gamma. More correctly... lack of proper calibration.

Jim

 

[Carlo Pisani]

Jannard, thanks a lot for answering.

Thus as a rule of thumb, what color space do you recommend to view Red footage using Redspace color space on a Mac? Is the safest bet still Adobe 1998 color profile?

 

[jake blackstone]

Jannard, thanks a lot for answering.

Thus as a rule of thumb, what color space do you recommend to view Red footage using Redspace color space on a Mac? Is the safest bet still Adobe 1998 color profile?

Why are you after an earlier explanation still insist on using Adobe 1998? I already told you, that this profile sRGB (IEC 61966–2.1) is typical for press gamuts. Are you doing prepress work or video? Use either Rec-709 or RedSpace with display calibrated to Rec-709 specs for video work and stop this nonsense with Adobe 1998. Nobody uses it in the postproduction for video work.

 

[Carlo Pisani]

Why are you after an earlier explanation still insist on using Adobe 1998? I already told you, that this profile sRGB (IEC 61966–2.1) is typical for press gamuts. Are you doing prepress work or video? Use either Rec-709 or RedSpace with display calibrated to Rec-709 specs for video work and stop this nonsense with Adobe 1998. Nobody uses it in the postproduction for video work.

Jake4n are you telling us that the advise which is given on pag. 76 of the Build 17 Red pdf manual is nonsense?

Ok I did start using SMPTE-C and still looks extremely blue. Its not different from Adobe 1998, at least on my mbp screen. Anyway I'll stick to it as you are a colorist but I would still like to hear what other people are using for their color profiles.

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake4n are you telling us that the advise which is given on pag. 76 of the Build 17 Red pdf manual is nonsense?

Ok I did start using SMPTE-C and still looks extremely blue. Its not different from Adobe 1998, at least on my mbp screen. Anyway I'll stick to it as you are a colorist but I would still like to hear what other people are using for their color profiles.

Did you calibrate the monitor? I guess I should've started with that

 

[Carlo Pisani]

And how do you calibrate a mbp for example?

 

[Richard Goodwin]

Asking the more knowledgeable people (than me) on this thread. Wouldn't you want to calibrate you monitor with a puck and software first? Then, set the software you are using for color correction to use a specific color space (profile)?

 

[jake blackstone]

And how do you calibrate a mbp for example?

I knew it! You're using and LCD screen, which is essentially only 6 or 7 bits in resolution by the time you finish the calibration, to judge the color on screen and then complain about it. LCD isn't a C-phosphor, it only can attempt to simulate the look. You'd need to be able to profile a given screen with something like Sinespace software, that would create the LUT for your graphics card to simulate Rec-709 profile, but it is VERY expensive. The best you can do is to use something like X-rite eye one display 2, so you can get get an approximation of the Rec-709 colors. You than may use that calibration for RC r3d transcode to whatever you wish, but that's about it. Do not grade with that screen, but if you do, sit very still and don't move from the center axis of the screen

 

[Stepan Kment]

You're using and LCD screen, which is essentially only 6 or 7 bits in resolution by the time you finish the calibration, to judge the color on screen and then complain about it.
Do not grade with that screen, but if you do, sit very still and don't move from the center axis of the screen

well, I'm fine with Eizo CG241W, has larger gamut then Adobe '98 measured with xrite eye1. And modern HP's will do the job, too, in my opinion... people are moving to LCDs from CRTs massively around.
However without HW calibration device, you're really just guessing.
IPS and PVA screens don't distort colors so quickly from the screen centre, however it always is a good idea to look from front, obviously.

What I am more interested: what redspace is - is it documented? I mean - white point, gamma curve, luminance of the display, as is mentioned above for Rec. 709. For after effects workflow, one would need ICC profile to use, however if we knew what it is, then it'd be possible to adjust incoming data manually a bit and use rec.709 as a base. At the moment, I import takes as really "raw something based on rec.709" and manually tweak for the look I like. Some typical recommended import setting may be a good starting point, not removing need for hand tweaking, but at least it maybe wouldn't be so dramatic.

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

I knew it! You're using and LCD screen, which is essentially only 6 or 7 bits in resolution by the time you finish the calibration, to judge the color on screen and then complain about it. LCD isn't a C-phosphor, it only can attempt to simulate the look. You'd need to be able to profile a given screen with something like Sinespace software, that would create the LUT for your graphics card to simulate Rec-709 profile, but it is VERY expensive. The best you can do is to use something like X-rite eye one display 2, so you can get get an approximation of the Rec-709 colors. You than may use that calibration for RC r3d transcode to whatever you wish, but that's about it. Do not grade with that screen, but if you do, sit very still and don't move from the center axis of the screen

Hello Jake, I have a question, and sorry if I hijack the post.

With all this color correction issues and gammas I am getting a little bit lost. I'll tell you my approach and could you let me know if I am missing something?

I'm editing in AE, final cut and Color as well. I have an MXO2. My mac color profile is set with Spider3 elite to Rec 709. Also calibrate my HDMI Dell 24" 2408WFP via the MXO2 HDMI calibration tool. I also have an old Sony black trinitron that I use as well.

In AE I set the working space as Rec 709. When I edit in AE the monitor (black trinitron and HDMI are quite different from the mac monitor. When I export the quicktimes look much lighter than what I was editing with the monitors. So my question would be. If I need to edit for broadcast (DVD, Blue Ray) I guess I would stick with this system, as the MXO2 would give me the best results, but if I want to post also the final edit on the internet, (quicktime is way too light) how would I adjust? I guess I would make a master in Rec 709 and maybe bring that master into color and do some adjustments as RGB gamma instead of REC 709.

I'm sorry but with so many steps and as Jannard said "lack of proper calibration", it is difficult to get consistent results. Any advise would be greatly welcome.

Thanks,

Ivan Cortazar

 

[jake blackstone]

well, I'm fine with Eizo CG241W, has larger gamut then Adobe '98 measured with xrite eye1. And modern HP's will do the job, too, in my opinion... people are moving to LCDs from CRTs massively around.
However without HW calibration device, you're really just guessing.
IPS and PVA screens don't distort colors so quickly from the screen centre, however it always is a good idea to look from front, obviously.

What I am more interested: what redspace is - is it documented? I mean - white point, gamma curve, luminance of the display, as is mentioned above for Rec. 709. For after effects workflow, one would need ICC profile to use, however if we knew what it is, then it'd be possible to adjust incoming data manually a bit and use rec.709 as a base. At the moment, I import takes as really "raw something based on rec.709" and manually tweak for the look I like. Some typical recommended import setting may be a good starting point, not removing need for hand tweaking, but at least it maybe wouldn't be so dramatic.

I agree, I would like to get a little more info on the RedSpace. My understanding is the Rec-709 and RedSpace are identical in every aspect, except the gamma curve. Anybody?
Eizo always made finest LCD monitors, that I also have used, but not for grading. In my opinion, it's no accident, that all of a sudden we have a proliferation of "crushed black" look. Why? My theory is luck of proper blacks on LCD results in crushing blacks in grading session in order to make LCD look decent. Even Sony was unable to deliver on a promise of CRT replacement with their broadcast LCD...

 

[jake blackstone]

Hello Jake, I have a question, and sorry if I hijack the post.

With all this color correction issues and gammas I am getting a little bit lost. I'll tell you my approach and could you let me know if I am missing something?

I'm editing in AE, final cut and Color as well. I have an MXO2. My mac color profile is set with Spider3 elite to Rec 709. Also calibrate my HDMI Dell 24" 2408WFP via the MXO2 HDMI calibration tool. I also have an old Sony black trinitron that I use as well.

In AE I set the working space as Rec 709. When I edit in AE the monitor (black trinitron and HDMI are quite different from the mac monitor. When I export the quicktimes look much lighter than what I was editing with the monitors. So my question would be. If I need to edit for broadcast (DVD, Blue Ray) I guess I would stick with this system, as the MXO2 would give me the best results, but if I want to post also the final edit on the internet, (quicktime is way too light) how would I adjust? I guess I would make a master in Rec 709 and maybe bring that master into color and do some adjustments as RGB gamma instead of REC 709.

I'm sorry but with so many steps and as Jannard said "lack of proper calibration", it is difficult to get consistent results. Any advise would be greatly welcome.

Thanks,

Ivan Cortazar

DVD and Blue Ray are not broadcast in traditional sence Anyway, there are basically two types of deliverables- video and film or DCI. Whenever you're not talking about film or dci, then you must be talking about video deliverables and that includes web. So, as long as you stick with REC-709 for any kind of video deliverables, you will be fine and everything will match, as long as everyone calibrates their monitors to REC-709. But once you start compressing, like the ever popular H264, there will be color shifts, but that has nothing to do with color space. It's different discussion altogether...

 

[Carlo Pisani]

I knew it! You're using and LCD screen, which is essentially only 6 or 7 bits in resolution by the time you finish the calibration, to judge the color on screen and then complain about it. LCD isn't a C-phosphor, it only can attempt to simulate the look. You'd need to be able to profile a given screen with something like Sinespace software, that would create the LUT for your graphics card to simulate Rec-709 profile, but it is VERY expensive. The best you can do is to use something like X-rite eye one display 2, so you can get get an approximation of the Rec-709 colors. You than may use that calibration for RC r3d transcode to whatever you wish, but that's about it. Do not grade with that screen, but if you do, sit very still and don't move from the center axis of the screen

Indeed, its just the humble mbp lcd screen, not that I tried to hide it before! Don't have any ambition to grade on the laptop, just want to watch dailies at a decent estimate of what it should look like... and don't have a calibration device... thus, is there a way I could load a colorspace profile that would just work?

Thanx