$9,500 for epic...

[Tom Greenberg]

if you see no difference in a 1080p finish it's because you can't tell that a larger sensor looks completely different. I suggest an optometrist, and learning a lot more about how lens optics work. I also suggest you learn more sophisticated post techniques - then you will see another kind of difference when you try to grade 3:1 material in Full 5K, you will be amazed at what is possible.

Wow, Robert...time to cut back on the caffeine, dude. This is pretty harsh. Thanks to those who came to my defense!

If you read my comment carefully, you'll see that I said "basically" no difference...my point being that a lot of the minute details that we REDUsers are uber-conscious of, tend to go away when things go to 1080p. As far as using 3:1, as Nick pointed out, not every project needs or deserves that. Choosing a compression ratio is always a balancing act between image quality and data manageability...even the freaking Hobbit shot at 5:1, so don't tell me that Scarlet at 6:1 is unusable.

As has has been pointed out repeatedly, we all agree Epic is the better camera of the two for a number of reasons which have been spelled out many times. But Scarlet is still a great camera, whether for straight narrative, doco, or B-cam use. There is no need to crap all over it while proclaiming Epic to be superior. I'm just happy that I'm finally in a position to upgrade.

 

[Maik Müller]

"Funny" to see where this thread ended up and what a simple question (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?108854-9-500-for-epic&p=1290256&viewfull=1#post1290256) can cause.

5k, larger sensor, lower compression and higher fps were never really something we have to argue about, we all know what EPIC can do and Scarlet not.

There were never really a proof of those myths about Scarlet being more noisy (and less reliable) under the exact same conditions. If you shoot 4k and don't need to go under 6:1, then Scarlet is perfectly fine. Period.

BTW, there is one thing, that has been proofed to be different between both cameras. Rolling shutter, because of the different sensor readout speeds. This didn't get mentioned at all, but unproofed stuff like "more noise" gets repeated again and again... Hmm.

 

[Ryan Lightbourn]

For my tastes & needs, 5k, 1.3 crop, higher frame rates, and lower compression are all extremely desirable. I don't make Hollywood money by any means, but those upgrades are still worth an extra 9.5k to me. I hate being unable to use the grayed out options on my Scarlet (smart move teasing us Red). I'm planning to upgrade Q1 2014.

For many, 4k S35, 6:1 & 3K WS 60p are more than enough, so a $9,500 upgrade is unjustified. To each his own.

Both are utterly 'Epic' cameras.

 

[Paul Schneider]

If your end product is 1080p or 2K, and both are shooting 4K, I agree that there is basically no difference between Epic and Scarlet. I've intercut that combination seamlessly many times. However, when your end product is 4k, or even if you just examine both at 4K, there is a noticeable difference between Epic footage shot at 5K and Scarlet footage shot at 4K. And that is not even taking into account the lower compression ratios with the Epic.

Agree.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Its' not about noise and resolution, the constant needless obsessions of Reduser - it's the field of view of the lens. An Epic gives you a wider field of view, Scarlet is more cropped. The wider field of view will look different, and generally it will look better in many ways. If you are doing heavy grading, then lower compression becomes very important. Anyone with a good eye for visuals can see the difference immediately.

Save $250 a day in price difference, to lower the quality of an entire shoot - I mean every shot will look less good. Not exactly smart.

Well Robert, what can I say. All my shots must look less good.

I shoot every month with Scarlets and Epics and at the broadcast level I never see a difference given similar lighting and circumstances. Maybe I don't have a good eye, but please don't tell my clients that as they seem pretty happy.

You are totally right that the field of view is different, but 4K is pretty much super35....so...you know, coming from Super16, 435's and such...it seems alright to me.
I guess its kind of a horses for courses thing.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Scarlet and Epic is night and day. They say the chips etc, are the same, but there's a big difference if you ask me.

huge,
especially low light, i couldn't believe my eyes how much cleaner 5K is, when i shot exactly the same dark spot in my house with the same settings, same lens and the same lighting,
and i am not even talking about 120fps 5K magic,
absolutely no regrets.

 

[Humberto Ramos]

I'm no Scarlet or Epic user, I have a R1.
When I bought it (bt) one year ago I was thinking in buying a Scarlet, but for wildlife I needed higher frame rates, cause I don´t like to film wildlife in 25fps (PAL I live in Europe) so 50fps at 3K and 100 at 2K push me to the R1 (in that time I had no money for an EPIC) instead going for the scarlet, that only make 48fps at 3k (at that time I think it even couldn't do 48 fps at 3k, not sure).
When I saw this thread I was asking for myself, why upgrading to an EPIC??? Why not to upgrade to a SCARLET DRAGON???

Can you guys explain me why you are choosing to upgrade to an EPIC instead SCARLET DRAGON?

I'm asking cause in the next month's if I can't buy a EPIC DRAGON, them I will consider a SCARLET DRAGON (my R1 is great, build like a tank, but also heavy like a tank, have to upgrade it for a lighter and better technology).

1-48 fps 5K FF at 5:1 compression
Max fps (2.4:1):
1-60 fps 5K
1-75 fps 4K
1-100 fps 3K
1-150 fps 2K

(http://www.red.com/products/scarlet#scarlet-dragon)

Yes it will not have 120fps at 5k, just 48fps at 5K 5:1, and 60 at other compressions ratios (they don't say which).

But isn't the advantage of getting a DRAGON sensor at 48fps 5:1 or 60 at higher compressions better than having 120fps with MYSTERIUM X?

Can someone explain me pros and cons of the SCARLET DRAGON vs EPIC MX?

 

[Phil Holland]

Can someone explain me pros and cons SCARLET DRAGON EPIC MX?

If we're talking the pros and cons versus to the new Dragon tech versus Mysterium-X tech there's a few things to consider.

Both create cinema quality 4K+ imagery, so that's not the big difference.

However, when it comes to sensor size Mysterium-X 5K is larger than Dragon 5K. Although, Dragon 5K is actually nearly S35 in frame width. That difference in itself has pros and cons depending on if you want a larger format more resolution in an industry standard format. I've been shooting with Red cameras for some time now and one of the biggest requests I've heard over the "time of the Epic" was getting 5K in that S35 window. However, we live in a world where people want the larger sensor size as well. That's sort of where 6K and Epic Dragon comes into play.

There is a rather tremendous difference in dynamic range between the two. That's a big one for some, not for others. It is for me.

Color is a different beast on Dragon compared to MX. That's a big one for me too.

Dragon does indeed have a lower noise floor as well and is a bit more light sensitive.

You do get more FPS (2X) with Epic with Mysterium-X than a Scarlet Dragon. That's more or less because Epic being the current flagship line of cameras and a leader on that front. If you're looking for more overcranking ability, Epic is the answer. If you are looking for what Dragon has to offer, well there you go, Scarlet Dragon or Epic Dragon are the only bodies on the horizon at this moment with that tech.


Red's basically giving current owners and potential owners options. The DSMC body is going to stick around for some time to come. In some ways we're getting closer to how film cameras operated in terms of price and usefulness. A Red One is still an extremely powerful 4K image maker. It's not really an obsolete product, although Red is certainly moving away from that body. Epic and Scarlet with Mysterium-X and Dragon are going to be a lot of what we'll be seeing for the next few years.

I have many thoughts. I think this is just the beginning for Dragon. Remember we're still in the early days of what this tech can do. Firmware updates, new features, and potentially other things we can't even think of at the moment are on the horizon. 2014 is going to be the year of both Epic and Scarlet Dragon landing in mass quantities. 2015/2016/2017? Well who knows

 

[Humberto Ramos]

Thanks Phil great explanation...

I want an EPIC DRAGON cause it does have dragon sensor and its does more frame rates, like you said 2X Over SCARLET DRAGON, those 120 fps will be great for my needs, but true is that 60fps, in my case 50fps would be great anyway, so if I have not enough money to EPIC DRAGON, in my case, I would prefer the DRAGON technology on a SCARLET DRAGON than the higher frame rates on the EPIC MX.
The higher dynamic range in may cases that I'm hiding in a small blind and can't take matte boxe, filters, etc, the higher dynamic range can make the difference between burning the highlights or not...

 

[Jon Shaw]

Plus I can't imagine Scarlet Dragon will be available for a fair while, so I'm sure most people including myself have gone, lets upgrade to Epic MX now, earn back our investment and then go Epic Dragon next year.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Plus I can't imagine Scarlet Dragon will be available for a fair while, so I'm sure most people including myself have gone, lets upgrade to Epic MX now, earn back our investment and then go Epic Dragon next year.

My thoughts exactly, Jon!

 

[Humberto Ramos]

Plus I can't imagine Scarlet Dragon will be available for a fair while, so I'm sure most people including myself have gone, lets upgrade to Epic MX now, earn back our investment and then go Epic Dragon next year.

Jon, I don't think that after upgrade your Scarlet to Epic you be able to upgrade it to Epic Dragon again, not 100% sure, I think I read somewhere that you just can upgrade once..

 

[Ulf Krentz]

No, Scarlet to EPIC MX to EPIC Dragon is OK. Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon is told to be dead end though. But as we all know anything can be subject to change

Cheers, Ulf

 

[Nick Morrison]

Jon, I don't think that after upgrade your Scarlet to Epic you be able to upgrade it to Epic Dragon again, not 100% sure, I think I read somewhere that you just can upgrade once..

That's not accurate. You CAN upgrade Scarlet to Epic...and then Epic Dragon...that's what many people are doing....I'm upgrading to Epic next month...with full intent of then being able to upgrade to Dragon in the summer.

 

[Kirk.Attard]

I'm doing just like you nick. I was going Scarlet dragon route but I'll take the long haul towards Epic Dragon. Just emailed my rep for details so I should be able to make the upgrade this month. Hope I wont be stuck with the holidays. (I want my Xmas present ) Scarlet dragon won't be here for quite a while so hopefully with the Epic I'll get the boost I need to push a little further and save enough for the Dragon. I'll be spending a little more but will have a no compromise camera in the end. If not Epic will do just fine ...

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm doing just like you nick. I was going Scarlet dragon route but I'll take the long haul towards Epic Dragon. Just emailed my rep for details so I should be able to make the upgrade this month. Hope I wont be stuck with the holidays. (I want my Xmas present ) Scarlet dragon won't be here for quite a while so hopefully with the Epic I'll get the boost I need to push a little further and save enough for the Dragon. I'll be spending a little more but will have a no compromise camera in the end. If not Epic will do just fine ...

I'm thinking just like you. Can't afford Dragon right now, but would love to have Epic in the meantime!

 

[Mike Garrick]

I think many see Scarlet Dragon as EOL. So what, time for a new camera.

People should also be aware that Scarlet>Dragon upgrade you will have a faster path to Dragon. Scarlet>Epic>Dragon upgrades are last on the list.
see it here....
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?107748-Dragon-Update

Horses for courses its your choice.....

However has it occurred to anyone what will replace it once Dragon is available off the shelf ? Now think really hard what that could be ......yep Epic. Epic is destined IMO to become the "new Scarlet at a scarlet price point" . ...its coming, how soon who nows maybe 2015 but one way or another its going to happen.

 

[Arthur Woo]

I think many see Scarlet Dragon as EOL. So what, time for a new camera.

People should also be aware that Scarlet>Dragon upgrade you will have a faster path to Dragon. Scarlet>Epic>Dragon upgrades are last on the list.
see it here....
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?107748-Dragon-Update

Horses for courses its your choice.....

However has it occurred to anyone what will replace it once Dragon is available off the shelf ? Now think really hard what that could be ......yep Epic. Epic is destined IMO to become the "new Scarlet at a scarlet price point" . ...its coming, how soon who nows maybe 2015 but one way or another its going to happen.

So...if you trade up to Epic X, and eventually trade into Epic Dragon, do you fall into 2.2, or would you still be considered 5, if you're going in steps?

 

[Mike Garrick]

It clearly states point 5.

2.2 is for Epic owners who purchased new ....not trade-ins with Scarlet.

 

[Kirk.Attard]

Epic MX should be home beginning of January.. Should start 2014 with a bang