8K Sensor Specs, Upgrade

[Jamie Forbush]

It has been a little frustrating. I have contacted RED sales and no one can really seem to give me any real specs regarding the new 8K sensor. It's a now for $10,000 or later for $20,000 upgrade NAB promotion and yet no one seems to really, truly know what it is we are upgrading to. How many stops? What other improvements such as color? What are the frame rates at lower resolutions such as 6K? Will the 6K frame rates increase from 100fps to 120fps or stay the same? All I know is that it's VV, slightly larger than FF, and 8K max resolution.

Also, there is still the issue of the highly limited options for glass currently. I really want to purchase for the long run Master Primes and/or Master Anamorphics for Weapon. It would seem that perhaps this new sensor is a bit premature unless some of these items can be reasonably addressed. This is a large and long term investment for me so as anyone can understand, I want to make it wisely. Is it me or is it safe to assume that the Dragon 6K sensor will serve myself and most cinematographers in Hollywood well for many years to come? Please tell me where I'm going wrong or help shed some light for me. Thank you.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Wondering the same thing on specs.

However, coverage wise and what's been released at NAB in terms of lenses, you're best bet is rehoused stills lenses, such as CP.2 and CN-E Primes and Schneider Xeons. I'm sure that'll change down the road, but slowly. I really like all those FF lenses, they're a little cheaper, but for those that have invested a lot in S35 cinema specific lenses it doesn't seem to make sense to go to Dragon 8K.

No doubt the Full Frame VV look that 8K Weapon will produce will be great though. Maybe Red is working on it's own lenses again.

Really looking forward to seeing some test footage from the 8K Weapon and at the very least the 6K Weapon.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Dont think the full set of Master Primes will cover but the large 8K chip has the vertical height to fully cover the Master Anamorphics and more. I have paid for the 8k upgrade and my expectation is it will be simply a larger version of the Dragon 6K chip so DR and colour will be the same.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think that if you consider Weapon image-wise like Epic Dragon, but with highly improved workflow capacities, an open modular structure (which will give us a lot more modules) and probably lower compression at similar frame rates/crop, you're not in for any surprises.

As to 8k... Yummy!

 

[Tony Harris]

All this talking but no footage? hmmmmm

 

[Phil Holland]

All this talking but no footage? hmmmmm

Soon.

To answer Jamie's questions.

- Currently Weapon features the RED Dragon sensor, which is 16+ stops of Dynamic Range. Jarred stated that the net result of the better processing with Weapon shold also about 0.5 stops worth of cleaner shadow detail. Side by sides, tests, and all that I'm sure will be on the horizon.

- Color. Color Science is ever evolving. I mean with some of the improvements announced we might see a new DRAGONcolor at some point. DC and DC2 are both actually very nice at the moment. I still run DRAGONcolor mainly, though I did use DC2 on my last shoot.

- Frame Rates remain the same as those are tied to the Dragon sensor technology.

- Glass. Master Primes are Super 35mm prime and are optimal for the Dragon 5K format, though 6K coverage is rather nice as well. This format isn't dying anytime soon. Dragon 8K will demand larger format lenses. There's about 60 or so years worth of still glass to explore and of course the recent VistaVision capable cineme primes and zooms from Ziess, Schneider, and Canon. Coverage tests will be done as Dragon 8K is a bit larger than the VistaVision spec, but we'll have to wait and see exactly what works and at what format.

- Future Proofing. Yes, 8K resolution will be around for a long time. As will 4K. These are the two most modern specs that productions will be finishing to.

 

[Tony Harris]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Tony Harris]

Last question...Sony said they had an 8k camera, they used it to shoot Oblivion... What k was that camera?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Last question...Sony said they had an 8k camera, they used it to shoot Oblivion... What k was that camera?

They shot it on F65. 6K sensor. That records 4K...

 

[Phil Holland]

Last question...Sony said they had an 8k camera, they used it to shoot Oblivion... What k was that camera?

Been a while since I've worked with a Sony F65, but if I recall correctly it's 5782x3060, which works out to about 17.6 megapixels. Sony gets to 8K by interploating the 45 degree bayer pattern image. Produces a nice 4K image actually.

The RED Weapon 8K Dragon sensor is 8192×4320. 35.4 megapixels.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

NHK had 3 flavors of 8K cameras on display on the floor at NAB, to very little fanfare. They have been pushing 8K for so many years without a camera to show for it, that I think people stopped paying attention. And yet, they had the goods.

And this just in, this past week - they're partnering with Ikegami to release 8K broadcast cameras.

http://www.onscreenasia.com/article...-first-hand-held-8k-uhdtv-camera-system/17310

4K/8K Olympics! that would be awesome!

 

[Jamie Forbush]

I really appreciate everyone's input. You all sound very talented and know your stuff. You'll have to forgive me as I'm still a bit new and have some learning to do still. This is all very fascinating to me and I can't wait to get the Weapon. Again, you all are amazing, thank you!

If I may ask a follow up question... I'm getting the CF version of Weapon. Would it be safe to assume that if I did the upgrade to the 8K sensor, I could still use S35 glass and still get full use out of those primes if I shoot at 6K or 5, 5.5K? As I see in the post by Phil regarding lense coverage on the 6K Dragon sensor (that was very well done and informative) the Master Primes at 25mm and up cover 6K well. With that information, I'm assuming that like most sensors, the S35 glass would still cover the smaller area being used by the sensor by using a lesser 6K or 5K resolution?

 

[Peter Majtan]

NHK had 3 flavors of 8K cameras on display on the floor at NAB, to very little fanfare. They have been pushing 8K for so many years without a camera to show for it, that I think people stopped paying attention. And yet, they had the goods.

And this just in, this past week - they're partnering with Ikegami to release 8K broadcast cameras.

http://www.onscreenasia.com/article...-first-hand-held-8k-uhdtv-camera-system/17310

4K/8K Olympics! that would be awesome!

Meryem, NHK had working 8K camera back in 2006 that I have seen with my own eyes - albeit only in their R&D lab. It is indeed a shame they did not get proper coverage at NAB.
Olympics 2020 are already confirmed to be broadcasted in 8K (and folks, please keep any silly comments such as "who is going to be able to see it at 8K?" to yourselves, as you are missing the point).
All current R&D grants from NHK linked to 2020 Olympics (I am working on two already) are linked to 8K capabilities...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

- Currently Weapon features the RED Dragon sensor, which is 16+ stops of Dynamic Range. Jarred stated that the net result of the better processing with Weapon hold also about 0.5 stops worth of cleaner shadow detail. Side by sides, tests, and all that I'm sure will be on the horizon.

Which translates to about 14.5 stops of DR. Noise renders the last 2 stops practically unusable.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Yes, I was surprised to see cameras on the floor, Peter. Every year, it seems that they bring the experimental footage without proper cameras, but this year, they seem ready to roll out a complete 8K acquisition and delivery pipeline - the partnership with Ikegami may bring things out of the lab and into the field.

If you are on the 8K path, then NHK/Ikegami and Sony will both be the ones to watch, I think.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Yes, I was surprised to see cameras on the floor, Peter. Every year, it seems that they bring the experimental footage without proper cameras, but this year, they seem ready to roll out a complete 8K acquisition and delivery pipeline - the partnership with Ikegami may bring things out of the lab and into the field.

If you are on the 8K path, then NHK/Ikegami and Sony will both be the ones to watch, I think.

Yes and no. 8K, as a number of pixels, could soon be just as widespread a format as 4K is today (or 1080p was 5 years ago). But we all know that sensor size is an entirely different kettle of fish. Broadcast is going to want to keep 2/3", because that's a reasonable size for ENG and super-zooms. It also makes focusing relatively practical for live production. Narrative film is probably going to want to keep S35 and beyond, because that's a big part of the Cinema look. The m43 market is still trying to prove there's a middle ground. RED 8K sensor stays within the 35FF size, so that's groovy for all the people who came up through the Canon EOS track. ARRI is staking out MF territory with the ARRI 65.

I don't see Ikegami going anywhere beyond their 2/3" roots, just as I don't see RED going anywhere near that small of a sensor size. I do see SONY trying to play in all the various markets, which they can afford to do, but not in any game-changing way. Panasonic has emerged from the wilderness with a new pair of Varicams (for broadcast and cinema), plus two prosumer options (the new DVX 200, and the not-yet-old GH4). None of these are 8K, but they very much set the stage for a coherent next-gen strategy. And if 8K broadcast is like 4K broadcast (4:2:0), then 4K 4:4:4 scales perfectly to 8K 4:2:0, so they are essentially ready for that.

I think that the drive to 8K puts a line in the sand, but I also think that (live) broadcast and episodic/narrative will be as far apart as ever, starting with the glass, to the sensor size, to the routing/workflow, to the delivery, to the audiences.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Your best bet is buy a Birger mount, like the one from Optitek and the soon coming one from Birger, and focus by wire, using Canon L lenses. These will cover VistaVision.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

No hard specs on the 8K sensor yet, but it is still the same pixel design, and presumably overall sensor block design, used by the 6K Dragon sensor. I'm 99.5% sure I saw Jarred say 8K @ 60fps from Weapon. Not sure what that means for frame rates at other cropped sensor areas. Both the CF and Mg Weapon cameras are FPS limited right now due to the 6K Dragon sensor design. We don't know if the 8K sensor will make any improvements in FPS or not. I'm going to not expect any until RED says it does. It also stands to reason that future sensors will have more ability here, especially since the brains can already handle more if it were available.

Which translates to about 14.5 stops of DR. Noise renders the last 2 stops practically unusable.

Er... If those are the results you're getting, you need to shift your range up a bit. Dragon handles highlights exceptionally well and I can get a good 15.5 usable if I'm exposing well. But Dragon doesn't see into the dark as much as some people would like.

Yes, I was surprised to see cameras on the floor, Peter. Every year, it seems that they bring the experimental footage without proper cameras, but this year, they seem ready to roll out a complete 8K acquisition and delivery pipeline - the partnership with Ikegami may bring things out of the lab and into the field.

If you are on the 8K path, then NHK/Ikegami and Sony will both be the ones to watch, I think.

The NHK has looked dreadfully awful every time I had seen it up until last year. Then there was a moment like "holy crap! they're actually doing it!" Nice to know the cameras are showing up. They did display some prototype 8K cameras a few years back and they were huge, beastly things with multiple cables running out of them.

Sony has also been dabbling with 8K camera prototypes and the past couple years has shown some things. They have not had any 8K presentation, but I think it was NAB 2012 where they had 8K split across two 4K monitors. It looked pretty crappy actually, mostly due to compression, but nice to see they were working on it.

Some of the initial 8K displays should leak into the channel later this year or early next year. Surprisingly to some, they're not as outlandishly expensive as the first 4K units were.

 

[Phil Holland]

Here is one of the larger Ikegami cameras, though using a Canon lens and not that custom one that was designed:

I've seen that camera a few times. 3.8 micron pixel pitch, which is interesting for cameras in this realm. This sensor is on the edge and honestly can't go any smaller (as of today) due image noise and dynamic range. You can see noise pretty clearly and "early" on this thing. The Ikegami is indeed a broadcast style camera body. They market it as "handheld" due to the shoulder form factor that's common for broadcast. Hitachi also showed the SK-UHD-8060 which uses the same sensor, though it's unclear if this particular camera is coming to the market in notable numbers.

And also the Astro solution:

Same sensor as well. The focus is 60 frames per second today with 120fps 8K tech that's been demonstrated.


The RED Weapon 8K Dragon camera form factor (6K Carbon Fiber Weapon shown here):

Features a 5 micron pixel pitch and is that larger VistaVision+ sensor size. 8K FF @ 60fps, 8K WS at 75fps.


Something also notable is the superMHL spec announced this year that supports 8K at up to 120fps. Which to me means there will be a want for an 8K camera that can handle 120-300fps (or somewhere in there) for some applications.

Your best bet is buy a Birger mount, like the one from Optitek and the soon coming one from Birger, and focus by wire, using Canon L lenses. These will cover VistaVision.

You can also just use the RED DSMC Canon Mount to control focus and iris with something like FOOLcontrol, Minion, or RED's upcoming 2-Axis Lens Controller. Likely some other things as well now that WiFi is happening within the Weapon body itself without extra modules.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

You can also just use the RED DSMC Canon Mount to control focus and iris with something like FOOLcontrol, Minion, or RED's upcoming 2-Axis Lens Controller. Likely some other things as well now that WiFi is happening within the Weapon body itself without extra modules.

We have been selling OptiTek 2 axis lens controller for RED DSMC for almost now as this 8 months old video shows ;-))))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsODB6CRQwc