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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

Christoffer,

Viewing resolution as an artistic choice makes not 8K less relevant. It's the opposite. 8K makes things so real...Like a window on a wall. Imagine what feelings you can give to people with this wonder.

I think that some people wait 8K to buy another TV. Because knowing the future, they know that what they buy today will soon be "obsolete". 8K are end of the road of them, in term of resolution.

HDR, wide color gamut, 10-bits colors, HFR, 8K, OLED. People heard this terms, and it's why they are pretty shy in term of investment. When 1080p went out, there was nothing. LED, PLASMA, LCD, that's all. People know the future, and they want to buy a affordable future proof product.

But trust me, I am not the guy who thinks resolution is the most important thing. Very far from it. Colors, noise, DR & compression are, IMO.
 
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Tarquin Cardona said:
This is some pretty deep 'lead follow or get out of the way' convo going on here. I would say as a content producer I just hope the 8K roll out is one heck of lot smoother than the 'I've fallen and I can' t get up' Epic M beta mess, and the 16 stops is really 13.5 and you can buy an OLPF to fix those noisy blacks, and if you give the camera a blanket and a lollipop it will give you a pretty image. For me Red is like the fabulous tech sandbox. It has a great role to play, but sometimes .... well. The best that can be said is the camera world would be a lot less interesting if Red were not in it.
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100% agree

Hugues Dagallier said:
Christoffer,

Viewing resolution as an artistic choice makes not 8K less relevant. It's the opposite. 8K makes things so real...Like a window on a wall. Imagine what feelings you can give to people with this wonder.

I think that some people wait 8K to buy another TV. Because knowing the future, they know that what they buy today will soon be "obsolete". 8K are end of the road of them, in term of resolution.

HDR, wide color gamut, 10-bits colors, HFR, 8K, OLED. People heard this terms, and it's why they are pretty shy in term of investment. When 1080p went out, there was nothing. LED, PLASMA, LCD, that's all. People know the future, and they want to buy a affordable future proof product.
Click to expand...

But 4K does that too, for most people they will feel just that, that it makes things so real. At the same time I'm also not saying 8K is irrelevant, I'm just saying that 8K is the end, that the human eye won't be able to make out changes in resolution when it moves beyond 8K.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
100% agree



But 4K does that too, for most people they will feel just that, that it makes things so real. At the same time I'm also not saying 8K is irrelevant, I'm just saying that 8K is the end, that the human eye won't be able to make out changes in resolution when it moves beyond 8K.
Click to expand...

4K does a nice job, but 8K does a better job. Check that. A schema from ARRI :

http://www.schubincafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ARRI-4K-Cinema.png

In a theater, I think people WILL notice the diff. And being seated at the very first rows and being able to enjoy a maximum resolution will be a great experience. Let's push 8K. And the resolution race will be finish (We agree on that !)

In fact, the first row can in fact see 10-12K ;-)
 
We are still ages from doing a good 4k DCP (lens, focus, camera choice, post-production, projector, screwed Sony TV set...). Let's work on it first! ;-)

Pat
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Are you actually saying that the difference between 6K to 4K debayer and 8K to 4K debayer is actually visable to the common eye? Not us, forget about us, I mean the rest of the entire world, who watch movies and content on devices and streaming codecs that lower the quality of the mastering formats to an extreme extent.
The 4K output from a 6K Dragon image is quite enough for 4K standards. And you need to double up the infrastructure of your post production to even get 8K rolling, try talking to a VFX artist about working in anything higher than what we do now.

And just because broadcast might be digital for 70% of the market by 2017 doesn't equal to consumers having adopted 4K on a large scale by that time. The general public don't even know or understand what 4K is! Most people don't even care.

This is my point. The Weapon 8K will be around for a LONG time. We might get a new sensor with better colors and noise handling, but 8K as a format is putting so much demand on workflow and on the general publics adoption of 4K that it will take time to justify it's use for productions other than real high end movies like Interstellar or Avatar going to IMAX theaters.
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I agree with you, my point is; today we shoot 1080P, 2k and 4k for 480p, 576P and 720p delivery, that is how most of the world views TV, we shoot 2k, 4k and 6k for 1080P Tv delivery and 2k DCP delivery. 480P and 720P will fizzle out in the next 10 years 1080P and UHD will be the specs for most delivery. Programming acquired on 4k, 6k and 8k will be the content of the future. Technology is making it very possible to broadcast these specs at a very low cost. 1080P/720P or 1080i was the second most expensive broadcast format after 1 inch tape. (I'm old enough remember the costs). Today the only limitations for broadcasting UHD is your Satellite uplink and downlink bandwidth. I believe 4K is about $2200 Per/Hour for 12 channels. It used to be $6500/HR for 12 hybrid 720P channels (mix of all res). technology has changed MP4 variants have replaced MP2. Now you talked about compression lowering quality, it depends on what quality you start from. Take Netflix's Daredevil for example, I watched it on 256Kbs DSL, but because it was shot on a 6K Dragon sensor, it wasn't affected by the bandwidth compression. Do not get me wrong, I'm an advocate of good enough. I think most cameras these days are good enough for most viewing experiences if you don't pixel peep. I would still have enjoyed Daredevil if the image resolution wasn't as great, but the technology is there to make viewing experiences better. And thanks to Red the technology in the near future will be cutting edge 8k Vista Vision. I'm like most men in the world i separate my business sense and what is profitable from my need to have the best of the best. If Best Buy has 200 inch 8k TV for $3k I will be the first in line, but I won't buy a camera i know won't give me a return on my investment. "The Weapon will give you twice the return of investment your current Epic will even though they have the same Sensor". The Moderators can sticky that quote and we can come back next year same time to re-check on this. Its just the way the camera industry is.
As you can see there won't be that many Weapon owners out immediately out there for a while. If only Rental houses have bodies, DP's will tout it as an excellent camera, producers will want it and the few who have it will be renting it for about $1500 for the 6k body and about $2k for the 8k. 2k or 4k process from 6k or 8k will trump everything out there. TV, Music Vids, commercials and Indie filmmakers will line up, the camera is light, cable free, has in built wireless lens moto controls like my Plus, whats not to love.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
The rational thing to do right now is to push for better colors, noise and codecs.
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Agreed...
But one (or three) don't need to exclude the other one.
Especially since if you shoot at 8K and downsample to 4K - you are drastically improving both color and noise (in addition to DR and sharpness)

Christoffer Glans said:
Why bother with 8K or 4K if we have bad compression, bad noise, bad colors and bad motion?
Click to expand...
Now this is a little harsh...
There is a "room" for NR improvement (and I agree I am being subtle here) given that RED has not implemented any NR at all in any of the current cameras. I do hope Weapon deploys some NR via HW circuity before the RAW compression kicks in...
But REDCODE RAW is some of the best compression algorithms out there. And bad colours / motion? C'mon Chris... ;o)

:sifone: Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
Agreed...
But one (or three) don't need to exclude the other one.
Especially since if you shoot at 8K and downsample to 4K - you are drastically improving both color and noise (in addition to DR and sharpness)


Now this is a little harsh...
There is a "room" for NR improvement (and I agree I am being subtle here) given that RED has not implemented any NR at all in any of the current cameras. I do hope Weapon deploys some NR via HW circuity before the RAW compression kicks in...
But REDCODE RAW is some of the best compression algorithms out there. And bad colours / motion? C'mon Chris... ;o)

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...
to Chris's defense he was talking about delivery standards not Red compression
 
Donald MJ Anderson said:
With 8K I cant wait to have my disbelief suspended by an actors makeup and the polystyrene world he inhabits.
Click to expand...

But from the same point of view - I can't wait to see every little detail in nature and urban landscapes, animals and other similar type shots by the likes of Gibby, Mammoth HD, Axiom, Michael DS, Mark T, or more timelapses from Tom, etc...
There is soooooooo much beautiful scenery in this world that will simply knock your socks off if you were able to see them in 8K...
To each their own...

:sifone: Peter
 
8K is about output flexibility.. not a means unto itself... which is likely why RED have both 6K & 8K upgrade pathways. Not just future-proofing, but offering acquisition + workflow opportunities in the meanwhile. The proliferation of good to amazing low-cost 4K+ acquisition devices represents the overall market shift and recognition of UHD's importance in the immediate future. We're now talking sensor quality+workflow+resolution as important to content origination as we move forward.
 
Peter Majtan said:
But from the same point of view - I can't wait to see every little detail in nature and urban landscapes, animals and other similar type shots by the likes of Gibby, Mammoth HD, Axiom, Michael DS, Mark T, or more timelapses from Tom, etc...
There is soooooooo much beautiful scenery in this world that will simply knock your socks off if you were able to see them in 8K...
To each their own...

:sifone: Peter
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100% agree. Again.
 
Peter Majtan said:
But from the same point of view - I can't wait to see every little detail in nature and urban landscapes, animals and other similar type shots by the likes of Gibby, Mammoth HD, Axiom, Michael DS, Mark T, or more timelapses from Tom, etc...
There is soooooooo much beautiful scenery in this world that will simply knock your socks off if you were able to see them in 8K...
To each their own...

:sifone: Peter
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So true.. detach the autonomy of acquisition res from the output format, and we're talking a new age of flexibility & choice in creative direction and control. Game changing IMO.
 
Little point in arguing that this or that is the limit. The limit should find itself in a practical and organic way that reflects the innovations of pioneers like RED.
 
Phil Holland said:
For those that remember, IMAX was at RED's booth at NAB 2014 last year and they were stating 6K Dragon material was on the same resolving level of 15-perf 70mm IMAX film. 8K will surpass that level of quality.
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Film is dead, but can we please let it rest in peace, 15-perf 70mm processed chemically from neg to screen is about 14k, around double Weapon's proposed 8k bayer pattern. Yes, if processed digitally your practically limited to 8k scans/6k prints - but as a format it resolves much higher than current digital cameras. Lets not disregard history just because current digital tools have not surpassed it yet. Look at Transformers, both the Imax digital camera/Phantom65 and Dragon looked not so great blown up to Imax. I'd take a titanium imax camera over a carbon forged weapon any day.

Peter Majtan said:
There is soooooooo much beautiful scenery in this world that will simply knock your socks off if you were able to see them in 8K...r
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It will only be as good as the recording format.

8k/35.5mp is 1.8x more pixels than 6k/19.5mp

Looking at current redcode efficiency on Dragon, 6k is a similar 1.8x more pixels than 3.5k:

3.5k/24fps/4:1 is 58 MB/sec vs 6k/24fps/4:1 is 177 MB/sec

based on that 3x increase in data rate, 8k/24fps/4:1 would require around 537MB/sec

or 300% "processing power increase" , a long way from the proposed 50%

50% increase with Weapon would be maybe 8k/24fps at 9:1 compression, not very good quality

Shoot some 6k at 9:1 now and see for yourself, its pretty mushy, specially in low light.

and 8k/60, will have to be super compressed

Add on the fact you probably have to crop some for lens vignetting on the large sensor, not sure 8k highly compressed vs 6k minimal compressed is going to be visually worthwhile.

If Weapon is suppose to be the body that will then house a future next gen sensor, beyond the 8k dragon based one, only a 50% increase does not add up.
 
Would anyone else be happy if Red was also offering an anamorphic 4:3 cut version of the larger sensor? Full Frame 8K.... I'm not shooting stills or IMAX... I am however seeing the popularity of Anamorphic escalate more and more. Perhaps there is an intermediate version of this whole situation that makes people stop saying "Do I really need 8k" and instead say "Oh great, I love Anamorphic!"

For what turns into a $20K upgrade after this week, maybe there is a happy middle ground that can happen?
 
Christopher*Seguine said:
Film is dead, but can we please let it rest in peace, 15-perf 70mm processed chemically from neg to screen is about 14k, around double Weapon's proposed 8k bayer pattern. Yes, if processed digitally your practically limited to 8k scans/6k prints - but as a format it resolves much higher than current digital cameras. Lets not disregard history just because current digital tools have not surpassed it yet. Look at Transformers, both the Imax digital camera/Phantom65 and Dragon looked not so great blown up to Imax. I'd take a titanium imax camera over a carbon forged weapon any day.



It will only be as good as the recording format.

8k/35.5mp is 1.8x more pixels than 6k/19.5mp

Looking at current redcode efficiency on Dragon, 6k is a similar 1.8x more pixels than 3.5k:

3.5k/24fps/4:1 is 58 MB/sec vs 6k/24fps/4:1 is 177 MB/sec

based on that 3x increase in data rate, 8k/24fps/4:1 would require around 537MB/sec

or 300% "processing power increase" , a long way from the proposed 50%

50% increase with Weapon would be maybe 8k/24fps at 9:1 compression, not very good quality

Shoot some 6k at 9:1 now and see for yourself, its pretty mushy, specially in low light.

and 8k/60, will have to be super compressed

Add on the fact you probably have to crop some for lens vignetting on the large sensor, not sure 8k highly compressed vs 6k minimal compressed is going to be visually worthwhile.

If Weapon is suppose to be the body that will then house a future next gen sensor, beyond the 8k dragon based one, only a 50% increase does not add up.
Click to expand...


I think you are missing quite a few points.

1: 8k downsampled to 2k and then compressed to proress will most likley be the cleanest 2k you ever seen. Noise and debayer issues are then devided by 4. The in camera downsampler is a huge thing to take into account. red does not speak to much of it as they been marketing r3d quite heavily but at this resolution new things comes in play. If they, as the rumor say open up for uhd proress then that will for sure provide totally different levels for noise and "night vision" etc.

2. I think very few are planing to playback their 8k material but even if the faster mini mags will bring a per pixel bandwidth that is higher than dragon 6k with 1.8 ssd's. I used 1.8 ssd's on dragon and i know for sure that serup can render pretty high quility stuff...

3. FF lenses will cover 8k, and not only cover but also render a much sharper image as more of the lens is used.
in other words any given ff canon lens used in 8k and mastered ag 4k will be sharper per pixel than the same lens when only 6k is used. Still lenses and quite a few other lenses do have an image circle that covers.
This 8k sensor is over 5mm wider than the 5d sensor but more wide screen so it still fits FF glass.

4. sensor format is not so much about resolution, even my mom can see the difference of super35 and 16mm even when showed in standard def....

5.im pretty sureThis 8k 41mm wide dragon sensor is not going to come across as mushy, on the conterary Im pretty positive that pretty much everyone that is not blind will be very capable to see where that extra money went even when watching low res files on vimeo.
 
The limit should find itself in a practical and organic way that reflects the innovations of pioneers like RED.
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No limits! and especially none tied to who ever came first, thats how the cinema industry lost the plot though paying too much respect to Kodak!

NHK et al have pioneered and promoted 8k for broadcast for a decade, RED stopped half way at the 4K ranch and actually delivered working cameras rather than prototypes.
Both are pioneers.



Mike Brennan
 
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