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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

5K Epic

Still... $12 500 sound like a lot of money for an upgrade...

But hey, as you said, let's wait to see the details.

And whatever happens, the Red One will still remain a fantastic camera.
 
I hope it's not that big a price increase for Epic.

On one hand, it took the wind out of my sails, but when you think about it, it's a brilliant move to give full trade-in value. You sure don't want thousands of used Red Ones to suddenly hit the market at devalued rates. This way Red One will hold its value instead and if I decide to sell, I should get most of my original investment.
 
Extremely Disappointing Announcements!

Extremely Disappointing Announcements!

I have been following Red since the DVXuser days when it was a scam. I have been and am still quite excited about what Red is doing for the world of movie making, but I feel that today is an awful day that shows Jannard is not so in touch with what makes Red special.

I think that he has gotten feature fever-- way too excited about development for its own sake without regard to what is desired by other people. First of all Scarlet is not something that is really needed. It is 2/3" and will not deliver filmic depth of field. The lens is only 2.8-- not impressive, 2.0 should have been considered a minimum. My HV20 has 1.9. How will things shot on Scarlet be delivered? At home? It will take some time before people even utilize 1080p. 3k. . . who cares about that much? Many people can hardly tell the difference between 720p and a 1080p. Moreover, numerous people don't see much benefit to HD v. SD. Of course, I am very picky about these things and am somewhat of a perfectionist, so naturally I have a 1080p projector, am an early HD adopter, want even better quality, but do today's announcements point us in the right direction? My chief complaint watching movies as far as the video quality today is the black level, and rather distant second is luminance uniformity. My new projector certainly does not even deliver a clear 1080p.

Evaluating Red One footage, the problem is certainly not resolution. Rarely does anyone even see 4k. S35 DOF scaled down to 2k in post will leave most everyone happy for a great deal of time. Cameron even said that 4k was overkill the other day and he is a techno nut (which may have something to do with some certain "qualities" of his work). Anyway, I personally think that 4k is about the ultimate necessary and of course to get 4k you will need native acquisition to be in excess of 4k. However, I doubt that Epic 5k will be the ultimate. I am sure that Arri will have 6k and given the past decades increase in semiconductors, before you know it 12k will be possible and then xxxk. But the question is: will anyone care? At some point even I won't.

Most people won't care past 1080p or perhaps lower. The Japanese firms will continue their "development" of useless features and incremental increases of video-looking product to squeeze the most out of people that they can. I had this vision that Red was not that kind of company. They came in and shot wildly over anyone's demands by coming out with a 4k camera! Rendering obsolescence obsolete! Giving you more resolution than you wanted. Giving you the depth of field that you craved and much more. In some much later future you might buy a new sensor to upgrade your camera (say in 2012), but Red One was going to put an end to the Japanese electronics' company madness of upgrade ad infinitum. No screwing you with the absurdly tiny 2/3" inch sensors that would not make an artistically appealing movie even if they were 1000 mega pixels and you had $20 mil to make it! No new models every year slowly trickling out a few new features that would not particularly make your features more artful. No line of products one competing against another, so that you had to design one in such a way that it did not eat of the market share of the other existing product! Well, today it is clear that I have been much too optimistic about this new camera company that I thought was going to finally end the madness of the monopoly of the Japanese companies or their other Asian upstart rivals. Red has the same bug of insanity that the Japanese have only they are the American version. Certainly more appealing but far from sensible.

So sing the praises of Scarlet, fanboys! Unless you have at least tens of millions for a huge amount of CG and some passable sci-fi story any feature that you shoot with it will look less like a movie than something shot on a 20-year old film camera. Since you only have a 2.8 aperture, I hope that you lighting budget is at least 100k. But hey you will be able to put it in your hip-hop baggy jean-pocket and impressive you doped up friends. Even better you will be able to take still photos as good as a $400 Powershot does today. You will get the pleasure of taking several times as much hard space for you higher bandwidth codec, so that you will spend your free time paused on certain frames with extreme subjects (probably quite ugly) puzzling out the difference between Raw 28, 36 and whatever else. (Yeah, that's what everyone has been complaining about on Reduser, there is just too much damn compression! Why such low data rates guys! Can't you give us something with some color space and without all of these absurd MPEG-like artifacts!)

Well, after you get over your disappointment about Scarlet you might then say. . . well, ok so Red needs to make some money from the Prosumer crowd. . . ok, suits me, I don't even mind or care. I am saving to buy the Red One and everything else that I need to make a artful real movie from it. Then you look at the Red Relay. I don't really understand how it fits in right now. Maybe it will be great and exactly what we need. I am sure that for 99% of us the highest quality distribution will be Blu-Ray for many years, so I don't see the where this device fits in for me, but I am will to withhold judgement for the time being.

Then we finally get to Epic. What a let-down! 5k? The last thing that I am interested in is resolution. I would not pay $1000 for more resolution until I own a set of Master Primes for $250k. Why not 6k? Why not a 36mm wide (or even wider) sensor and a new lens format or addressing any of a hundred other priorities. I would think that over 90% of sane people of Reduser would prefer delivery of the already promised dynamic range. The next step would be to equal film's DR. Give us a full set of primes. Give us a zoom with T2.0. Give us better low light performance. Give us a solution to combat tungsten lighting. Solve infrared contamination issues. Gives us a way to get great focus on the cheap. Wireless monitoring. The kind of integration promised over a year ago on FCP. Some way to affordably color grade 4k. Turn out the Nikon mount sooner, the promised lens, or even the camera itself. Deliver the promised builds in a timely fashion. On and on and on and. . . there is no shortage of needed work to bring about the Red revolution to movie making! But for God's sake, quite wasting your limited resources on crap that nobody asked for or even needs for NAB next year. It is totally beside the point.

Jannard suffers from a similar personality problem that I have even noticed in myself and I bet exists in many of the people on Reduser: destructive perfectionism. We don't need the last camera, we don't need the greatest camera of 2015, we don't even need to put Sony, Panavision, and Arri out of business. We just need your genius focused on the primary mission. We need the most stable, most efficient camera, the greatest accessories, and best customer support that you can deliver for the most interesting and promising product in motion picture history since color film, namely Red One! Re-double your efforts on Red One. Let's see the Red tripod, jib, stabilizer, gyro system, monitor, projector, post-production solutions, etc. before you waste even 4 hours of one day on these other things. Red One does not have to be everything to all people. If it is simply the greatest tool for those that do not have access to million to actualize their cinematic vision, it would ender you to millions of people for you whole life and probably would make you enough money to be satisfied with if you are the decent person that you appear to be.

Well, I am tired of ranting. I am still going to save my money as fast as I can to afford the Red One and needed accessories. I love Red and will only say good things about it outside of this board, but I am disappointed at the lack of focus and the indulgence that its leader showed today.
 
The EPIC sounds awesome to me. It sounds like the right move, I think most people will stick with the REDONE for a while but I'm willing to eventually pay more for higher frame rates, smaller camera, increased dynamic range, lower noise, and quieter. With a full value trade in on the REDONE its a very nice offer.

all 5k means to me is a little breathing room in reframing for 4k, or maybe those extra pixels for people hooked on anamorphic.

Please RED make this sensor TUNGSTEN balanced!!!
 
antiquaeuropa said:
snip

My HV20 has 1.9.

snip
Click to expand...

Relax big fella......................... that HV20 has a micky mouse toy-sized tiny sensor. The DOF with the Scarlet 2.8 will be lots shallower.

Get used to progress!

JohnG
 
Well, if the target is genuine 4k delivery, and Greame's debayer delivers about 78% effective net resolution, 5k is pretty close to the sweet spot.

Well, hopefully they will leave that joystick behind and make a different controller...
 
On the scarlet lens, the spec is T2.8, which is probably F2.6.
The HV20 plastic lens is speced at F1.8 at the wide end and F3 at the tele end.

I'd say that's pretty darn close...I'd bet the scarlet lens is way better using a more modest 8x zoom and 2/3" sensor insted of 10x and 1/2.7"
 
antiquaeuropa said:
I have been following Red since the DVXuser days when it was a scam. I have been and am still quite excited about what Red is doing for the world of movie making, but I feel that today is an awful day that shows Jannard is not so in touch with what makes Red special.

I think that he has gotten feature fever-- way too excited about development for its own sake without regard to what is desired by other people. First of all Scarlet is not something that is really needed. It is 2/3" and will not deliver filmic depth of field. The lens is only 2.8-- not impressive, 2.0 should have been considered a minimum. My HV20 has 1.9. How will things shot on Scarlet be delivered? At home? It will take some time before people even utilize 1080p. 3k. . . who cares about that much? Many people can hardly tell the difference between 720p and a 1080p. Moreover, numerous people don't see much benefit to HD v. SD. Of course, I am very picky about these things and am somewhat of a perfectionist, so naturally I have a 1080p projector, am an early HD adopter, want even better quality, but do today's announcements point us in the right direction? My chief complaint watching movies as far as the video quality today is the black level, and rather distant second is luminance uniformity. My new projector certainly does not even deliver a clear 1080p.

Evaluating Red One footage, the problem is certainly not resolution. Rarely does anyone even see 4k. S35 DOF scaled down to 2k in post will leave most everyone happy for a great deal of time. Cameron even said that 4k was overkill the other day and he is a techno nut (which may have something to do with some certain "qualities" of his work). Anyway, I personally think that 4k is about the ultimate necessary and of course to get 4k you will need native acquisition to be in excess of 4k. However, I doubt that Epic 5k will be the ultimate. I am sure that Arri will have 6k and given the past decades increase in semiconductors, before you know it 12k will be possible and then xxxk. But the question is: will anyone care? At some point even I won't.

Most people won't care past 1080p or perhaps lower. The Japanese firms will continue their "development" of useless features and incremental increases of video-looking product to squeeze the most out of people that they can. I had this vision that Red was not that kind of company. They came in and shot wildly over anyone's demands by coming out with a 4k camera! Rendering obsolescence obsolete! Giving you more resolution than you wanted. Giving you the depth of field that you craved and much more. In some much later future you might buy a new sensor to upgrade your camera (say in 2012), but Red One was going to put an end to the Japanese electronics' company madness of upgrade ad infinitum. No screwing you with the absurdly tiny 2/3" inch sensors that would not make an artistically appealing movie even if they were 1000 mega pixels and you had $20 mil to make it! No new models every year slowly trickling out a few new features that would not particularly make your features more artful. No line of products one competing against another, so that you had to design one in such a way that it did not eat of the market share of the other existing product! Well, today it is clear that I have been much too optimistic about this new camera company that I thought was going to finally end the madness of the monopoly of the Japanese companies or their other Asian upstart rivals. Red has the same bug of insanity that the Japanese have only they are the American version. Certainly more appealing but far from sensible.

So sing the praises of Scarlet, fanboys! Unless you have at least tens of millions for a huge amount of CG and some passable sci-fi story any feature that you shoot with it will look less like a movie than something shot on a 20-year old film camera. Since you only have a 2.8 aperture, I hope that you lighting budget is at least 100k. But hey you will be able to put it in your hip-hop baggy jean-pocket and impressive you doped up friends. Even better you will be able to take still photos as good as a $400 Powershot does today. You will get the pleasure of taking several times as much hard space for you higher bandwidth codec, so that you will spend your free time paused on certain frames with extreme subjects (probably quite ugly) puzzling out the difference between Raw 28, 36 and whatever else. (Yeah, that's what everyone has been complaining about on Reduser, there is just too much damn compression! Why such low data rates guys! Can't you give us something with some color space and without all of these absurd MPEG-like artifacts!)

Well, after you get over your disappointment about Scarlet you might then say. . . well, ok so Red needs to make some money from the Prosumer crowd. . . ok, suits me, I don't even mind or care. I am saving to buy the Red One and everything else that I need to make a artful real movie from it. Then you look at the Red Relay. I don't really understand how it fits in right now. Maybe it will be great and exactly what we need. I am sure that for 99% of us the highest quality distribution will be Blu-Ray for many years, so I don't see the where this device fits in for me, but I am will to withhold judgement for the time being.

Then we finally get to Epic. What a let-down! 5k? The last thing that I am interested in is resolution. I would not pay $1000 for more resolution until I own a set of Master Primes for $250k. Why not 6k? Why not a 36mm wide (or even wider) sensor and a new lens format or addressing any of a hundred other priorities. I would think that over 90% of sane people of Reduser would prefer delivery of the already promised dynamic range. The next step would be to equal film's DR. Give us a full set of primes. Give us a zoom with T2.0. Give us better low light performance. Give us a solution to combat tungsten lighting. Solve infrared contamination issues. Gives us a way to get great focus on the cheap. Wireless monitoring. The kind of integration promised over a year ago on FCP. Some way to affordably color grade 4k. Turn out the Nikon mount sooner, the promised lens, or even the camera itself. Deliver the promised builds in a timely fashion. On and on and on and. . . there is no shortage of needed work to bring about the Red revolution to movie making! But for God's sake, quite wasting your limited resources on crap that nobody asked for or even needs for NAB next year. It is totally beside the point.

Jannard suffers from a similar personality problem that I have even noticed in myself and I bet exists in many of the people on Reduser: destructive perfectionism. We don't need the last camera, we don't need the greatest camera of 2015, we don't even need to put Sony, Panavision, and Arri out of business. We just need your genius focused on the primary mission. We need the most stable, most efficient camera, the greatest accessories, and best customer support that you can deliver for the most interesting and promising product in motion picture history since color film, namely Red One! Re-double your efforts on Red One. Let's see the Red tripod, jib, stabilizer, gyro system, monitor, projector, post-production solutions, etc. before you waste even 4 hours of one day on these other things. Red One does not have to be everything to all people. If it is simply the greatest tool for those that do not have access to million to actualize their cinematic vision, it would ender you to millions of people for you whole life and probably would make you enough money to be satisfied with if you are the decent person that you appear to be.

Well, I am tired of ranting. I am still going to save my money as fast as I can to afford the Red One and needed accessories. I love Red and will only say good things about it outside of this board, but I am disappointed at the lack of focus and the indulgence that its leader showed today.
Click to expand...

WOW! You just saved me a lot of time with my potential rant. Thanks (no sarcasm here- serious). Agree with 95% of your post. Listen up RED.
 
It was a mad house in RED booth today. I got to see some primes and the 18-85 BEAST! That thing was huge. Didn't get a chance to play with anything. Did see clips from Guerilla and Argentine :) Believe it or not I found out about Epic on these forums and not the RED booth. Go figure...
 
Hi all
First post in reduser, so be kind...
I agree antiquaeuropa, I (and I think most of them reduser fellows) do not need the 5k Epic camera for at least the next decade. As a director I need some improvements which are not always justified by technologie. As an exemple I'am pretty shure that shallow dof is a problem for Sony's and Panavision's designers. I was really fed up by those cams (Sony's and Panavision's) just because of that.
Imagine we had to wait the 2000's to get progressive scanning, just because those cams were designed by ingeneers for ingeneers.
But if you look on a marketing ways Jim and his crew need to have a high end caméra. The question is not to put Arri and Sony out of business but not let those companies put Red out of business. That's why Jim needs Epic today to stay at the top: for credibility. So, Antiquaeuropa remenber you have the choice not to buy Epic, Redone is still here and I'm sure they will improve it as well.
 
Emmanuel Cambier said:
I think it's a bit early to draw conclusions, don't you think?:calm:

Emmmanuel
Click to expand...

I agree on that one. Personally I don't mind Red making the Epic as long as they will improve on build 16 and future builds when it comes to NR.
There is a lot of speculation on the forum. I don't want to offend anyone, but the place feels like a chickenhouse from time to time...
 
The only problem that I am seriously worried about with the Epic is for development of the Red One to be slowed, or for the camera not to be pushed to the max because the Red team says "ah, no need to do that, that's what we have the epic for." If the Red One was it, the team would have to squeeze that orange for all its worth; I just hope the Epic doesn't create excuses.

Now this is being said with full faith in the Red team, not having been let down yet. I think its important for us all to voice our concerns so they can be addressed (as they most always are).
 
Je sui d'accord

Je sui d'accord

zem said:
Hi all
First post in reduser, so be kind...
I agree antiquaeuropa, I (and I think most of them reduser fellows) do not need the 5k Epic camera for at least the next decade. As a director I need some improvements which are not always justified by technologie. As an exemple I'am pretty shure that shallow dof is a problem for Sony's and Panavision's designers. I was really fed up by those cams (Sony's and Panavision's) just because of that.
Imagine we had to wait the 2000's to get progressive scanning, just because those cams were designed by ingeneers for ingeneers.
But if you look on a marketing ways Jim and his crew need to have a high end caméra. The question is not to put Arri and Sony out of business but not let those companies put Red out of business. That's why Jim needs Epic today to stay at the top: for credibility. So, Antiquaeuropa remenber you have the choice not to buy Epic, Redone is still here and I'm sure they will improve it as well.
Click to expand...

Zem, you make a good point. I hadn't thought of Epic as the RED team's preemptive strike. It makes sense.
 
Funny, "EPIC" by Faith No More came up on iTunes as I was reading this thread...
"Youuuu want it all but you can't have it...
iiit's in your face, but you can't gra-ab it!"

I was worried to a degree that EPIC will stretch RED's overworked staff too thin to concentrate on RED ONE, but then I had a thought. If you employed people to build cameras, you wouldn't let them go after a single model. I don't think those engineering genius' could just wait around on the company payroll while firmware and customer service issues dominated everyones' attention.
Give them a holiday, when they come back get them to work on the Mysterium X which in turn becomes the basis of two cameras. One for a current market that is slightly below your current one, another as a preemptive strike against the old boys club's eventual retaliation to all this upstart nonsense!

The very fact that the mysterium x will be available in both 2/3 and S35 sizes makes me think that spinning a RED ONE compatible version shouldn't be a problem unless they went through a quantum leap in i/o technology aswell.
 
Wow! They kept us on our seats for SCARLET and pulled a 5K out of the hat with it. The boys at RED are insane! Wish I could goto the NAB. I understand what antiquaeuropa is saying about Scarlet. Ive been a Adobe Premiere/Sony Vegas user, but I think im gonna completely switch to FCP. And Ive been wondering when RED is gonna come out with its own projetor?
 
As grandpa used to say: Watch out son, sometimes the best is an enemy of the good...

Chill out boys, and be happy for your 17,500 refund! That shows devotion towards rendering obsolsence obsolete!
 
Via REDmodz.

img_2417.jpg
 
I sure hope Red didn't put the camera interface on the back of the new camera. That definitely wouldn't be epic.
 
Steven-Marc said:
Did you hear this from someone from Red at the booth?
Click to expand...


I definitely heard the Scarlet was under 3K from Kelly when she was giving people the brochures, but now you have me doubting exactly who I heard the 40K number from. I thought she said it, but it was such a madhouse there, I might have misheard or heard it from someone else. I'll probably try to drop by there again and make sure.

As for the Epic, I agree with those who say we shouldn't jump to conclusions. And, really, it could be up to a year or more before people start taking deliveries on the Epics, so the fact that the promise was made to give Red One owners the full trade in value for their camera is pretty darn nice.

But it's still a little disconcerting. Will I really have to pay 20K to upgrade to the Epic even with a trade in? 10K would be pushing it, but more manageable for me personally and yet I would still much rather have upgrades available for the Red One.


Oh, one last thought on resolution. NHK a Japanese company is showing their Ultra High Definition Screen(s) at NAB (at the very back in the C hall for those attending). They basically slapped four 4k screens together creating a 7680x4320 pixel resolution TV.

7K anyone?
 
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