#4K4ALL

[Maik Müller]

Are we seriously saying that you can cut an 8K sensor with 0 waste? Sounds too literal to me so someone please enlighten on how sensors are actually made.

I think so. There must be a stage where a wafer can get split or not, before assembly to a complete sensor begins. I highly doubt it's a coincidence that we see a exakt 4k-sensor now, after the introduction of 8k-sensors.

Anyways. On one of Jarred's Raven posts there was a little window that said the 4K was selected with No Look Around. What is the Look Around? Does that mean there is in fact more to this sensor.
I am hoping yes.

You mean that foolcontrol-screenshot? I think that "Look Around"-indicator is always shown (even if it's not possible to activate) and just lightened up, when activated.

Maybe Red will surprise us with 2 Raven flavors, Raven 4k and Raven 5k which will replace the Scarlet Dragon with an upgrade program. Then "4k4ALL" would even make more sense, 4k for indies in a budget and "real" 4K for people caring about the resolution and s35 format. It would complete the lineup: Raven 4K, 5K, Weapon 6K, 8K.
The announcement is on friday and we almost know everything about the camera already. I would not be surprised if they're keeping some hidden stuffs. And there was this picture with "raven12" and "raven24".

Would love to see a higher specced DSMC²-camera happening, something that can fully replace my Scarlet-Dragon and adds a little more. But i don't think we will see it on friday.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

No look around means that it's not active. But it doesn't mean that it can be activated or even exists. That's a field in the Foolcontrol app. My bet is that you can't have look around in 4K, but if you are able to get 3 and 2K, it can be used then.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i think red should make me a 70mm camera for a million bucks, but then cut the sensors down to 1/3" video camera size so they can reduce my costs by passing it along to the video crowd


ps can someone run the field of view/crop factors for me on that lmfao?


no, but seriously, this is pretty cool. i don't know what to make of it, weapon/8k is going to cost me a lot compared to this i bet, and i want to do it asap but no idea when it will happen or how soon to have the 35k or whatever i need to make the leap... this raven price point almost is enough to entice me to grab a second cheap red, but with no time table on either my weapon 8k upgrade (I'm the back of the line, had to hustle like crazy to get 15k that fast) its just tough to even decide what to do. I'm sure the announcement will clear some of this up, the raven may not even be shipping any time soon compared to their current in production lines too... Who knows what to do these days, I love my current models but since they serve many others via rentals and never my personal projects I do want a cheaper camera I can justify actually owning without an intended business model/return on the investment...So I think Raven could be a fine toy for the inner hobbyist in me trying to break out, thats all I keep thinking cuz this seems like a better buy than a used Scarlet or Epic given all I know so far...

I also think those of you expecting it to have auto black shades/prores/bells/whistles will be disappointed... i mean look at the difference in price and features on the weapon line, it doesn't make sense to MG buyers if Raven is almost as good as that camera in functionality... for the price point i really doubt it will have all the additional stuff weapon does.. so don't hype this up to a point we all know it can't reach at this price point is my thesis... it will be an incredible camera, but it won't be a CF Weapon or MG weapon is all

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

My assumption is that they test each 8K cut in hopes it will make it into the 8K Weapons. If it has a bad pixel or two, then they cut it crossways to yield as many 4096 by 2048 cuts as they can that don't have bad pixels. Of course if they are cutting crossways, they could choose a larger north-south raster like 2160, 2304, etc.

To be realistic, at $6K for the brain, some costs had to be cut (pun intended).

Cheers - #19

 

[sam karr]

Would love to see a higher specced DSMC²-camera happening, something that can fully replace my Scarlet-Dragon and adds a little more. But i don't think we will see it on friday.

So the Weapon body will go from 4k to 6k without anything between? From 6000$ to 24000$? I think it would make sense to have a S35 camera in their lineup. I can't believe that the scarlet dragon was just a weird monster in their strategy and will be abandonned in a near future.

 

[Maik Müller]

No look around means that it's not active. But it doesn't mean that it can be activated or even exists. That's a field in the Foolcontrol app. My bet is that you can't have look around in 4K, but if you are able to get 3 and 2K, it can be used then.

Exactly.

BTW, reality-check: there will be a true 4k-sensor combined with REDCODE for less than 6kUSD in a world where one side still shoots 2.8k for blockbusters. Lots of shoots are still done with Scarlet-MX, productions on EPIC are done in cropped 4k and so on, people shoot 3k for 4k-delivery if needed.

Just let's see what this baby can deliver and don't underestimate because of the "missing" 0.5k.

 

[Mike P.]

Just a curious question for Epic and Scarlet Mysterium-X shooters out there. With Raven, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, and the various flavors of Weapon now all "existing" what sort of path would be most interesting to you at this point?.

For me, I like to see all the cards... and that includes how much used Scarlet-Xs and Epic-Xs are going to sell for post-Raven. I do think there is way more *future proofing* (and hence value) in getting the DSMC2 chassis, as every accessory you buy for DSMC1 likely has to get replaced if you inevitably do make the switch/upgrade to DSMC2 (and RED's accessory prices are absolutely *not* indie-friendly). More over, I don't think Scarlet-Dragon offers enough over Raven for its current asking price of $14.5k... I mean, even if Raven is fixed-mount, and there are EF/Nikon/PL versions, you could essentially buy an EF-mount Raven, a F-mount Raven, *and* a PL-mount Raven for the cost of one Scarlet-Dragon and three swappable mounts (which only does 4k/60fps)? Pfffft, no dice. Plus Raven is close to half the weight! Bonus!

Honestly, right now my hesitation extends mostly from the less than s35 sensor size. Even 4k MX is about 10% smaller than S35, which I didn't like (and why I secretly hoped 4.5kWS/24fps would come to Scarlet-X to bridge the gap). Now 4k Dragon is 10% smaller than 4k MX, which means it's as close to s16 as it is s35 (closer still to m43, which is a slightly bigger than s16). Feels a lot more like a lateral move, than moving up, and I don't really care to pay for a lateral move... if that's the case, I could just as easily see myself getting another Scarlet-X brain for $2k or getting into another camera system altogether (Isn't BMD 4.6k actually 10% BIGGER than s35? And it's shootable for $5k, which is still $1k less than the Raven Brain... Or FS5/FS7, which are both 4k/s35... so many options nowadays.)

How much are Epic-X brains going for used again?

 

[Robert Gustafsson]

Would love to see a higher specced DSMC²-camera happening, something that can fully replace my Scarlet-Dragon and adds a little more. But i don't think we will see it on friday.

http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-magnesium-upgrade-package-deposit

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

BMD 4.6k is about 10% bigger... it for sure has twisted my arm... as well as having prores/raw option. The EVF is supposedly top notch as well.

That being said the Raven has caught my eye and am watching it closely

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

So the Weapon body will go from 4k to 6k without anything between? From 6000$ to 24000$? I think it would make sense to have a S35 camera in their lineup. I can't believe that the scarlet dragon was just a weird monster in their strategy and will be abandonned in a near future.

First of all, the real world price differential with an actual shootable kit is not as dramatic.

More to the point, how much production work is there in the "middle market"? Maybe it's just a local phenomena, but on the low end we typically shoot on the production company's or DP's camera with a nominal value of roughly $300/day including the whole kit - power, media, support, lens. For TVCs and other higher end work, rental packages featuring Epics or Alexas dominate.

From my perspective RED has aimed the Raven at the owner/op market where anything over $10K has a limited audience. The Weapon for rental houses and established DPs. Seems like a smart strategy to me, though I can understand some people feeling it's not what they bargained for when they got on the RED train. FWIW, so many of the theoretical middle market buyers already have R1s/Scarlets/second hand Epics/C300s/etc that trying to sell to them is problematic.

Cheers - #19

 

[Adam Montville]

So the Weapon body will go from 4k to 6k without anything between? From 6000$ to 24000$? I think it would make sense to have a S35 camera in their lineup. I can't believe that the scarlet dragon was just a weird monster in their strategy and will be abandonned in a near future.

Same thinking. Jared stated in his "For The Indies / Our Scarlet customers..." thread that "there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near."

I thought that was the Raven at first, however, with the 4k only, fixed mount, etc, and as this is priced below Scarlet Dragon, I do not believe that the Raven is what he is talking about. I think something to replace Scarlet Dragon to a DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] body will happen at some point, but not here yet

 

[Glen Powell]

Same thinking. Jared stated in his "For The Indies / Our Scarlet customers..." thread that "there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near."

I thought that was the Raven at first, however, with the 4k only, fixed mount, etc, and as this is priced below Scarlet Dragon, I do not believe that the Raven is what he is talking about. I think something to replace Scarlet Dragon to a DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] body will happen at some point, but not here yet

Pretty much believe the same thing - though the $35K upgrade from Scarlet Dragon to 6K Mg Wpn isn't so bad... (/sarcasm)

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

You mean that foolcontrol-screenshot? I think that "Look Around"-indicator is always shown (even if it's not possible to activate) and just lightened up, when activated.

Yes the 'NO LOOKAROUND' indicator says it was not activated
once clicked it will toggle LOOK AROUND (reducing max achievable FPS)... if the camera does allow lookaround to be activated for the current shooting format...

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'm just going to keep shooting My Scarlet MX. If an upgrade path were to re-open for me I might continue on down that road moving toward Epic Dragon or some newer Weapon chassis camera as of yet unknown.

Raven holds no allure for me as I see my own growth and evolution likely moving eventually away from EF glass. So I will round out my Scarlet kit with things that improve its EF shooting performance and keep on keeping on utilizing both EF and PL mounts.

Just a curious question for Epic and Scarlet Mysterium-X shooters out there. With Raven, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, and the various flavors of Weapon now all "existing" what sort of path would be most interesting to you at this point?

I don't know if RED will ever re-implement the Dragon upgrade program offered for some time, but I am curious to what most Mysterium-X shooters would be looking for now knowing what RED has up their sleeves.

Cameras do indeed lose value over time, that's part of the industry sadly. However, what is good news is no RED camera to date has been made obsolete. Literally every camera model released is out there shooting 4K and 4K+ motion pictures. That in itself "adds value".

 

[Scott Brown]

I'm totally in the same boat. Right now, the work I'm getting is mostly doc stuff. As much as I adore Redcode and the Red look, it doesn't make sense for this kind of work. If Raven is even just an "okay" camera for observational documentaries, I'd probably take it over an FS7. I'm curious what the battery life will be. If there is a ProRes option - even just an HDMI output for using an external recorder - that would also be a factor.

Christopher - for us, it's going to be a battle between the Sony FS7 (or FS5 which we tested fully at IBC....it's tiny and could make a great docs camera) and the C300 Mk2 which has the most amazing autofocus abilities! I'm almost embarresed to admit that I use autofocus but when I'm working flat out in often very difficult conditions, autofocus sometimes means the difference between me getting a useable shot and garbage. I played with the C300 Mk2's autofocus for over an hour and it truly is incredible and was more accurate than a focus puller would be in similar circumstances. Enough about the Canon....it's twice the price of the Sony FS7 and it is not twice the camera IMHO.

Raven will also need to bring good audio to the table and have a minimum of two XLR inputs. As already mentioned in an earlier post, for us it would be a godsend for the camera to offer a beautifully downscaled internal 1080p option with the same FOV as 4K. This is what the C300 has offered from day one and is part of the reason that this has almost become an industry standard for docs filming.

I've already banged on enough about internal ND's and I just don't see RED offering this.

Bring on Friday!!

Scott

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

As others have already said, Red has always geared its products toward productions rather than documentary crews. It's extremely unlikely that the Raven will come close to the feature set of the FS7 or C300. But what they lack in features, the Red cams make up for in image. I still haven't seen anything shot on FS or C cameras that is as cinematic as the Red image.

 

[Ben Scott]

Yes I mentioned before having had the FS7 for a year I think in the current market it is incredibly underpriced for what it is capable of, and it's a real Swiss Army Knife of a camera, being good enough at a lot of things and therefore being incredibly versatile.

Shooting 4k 60fps internally in this tiny lightweight package

Sony FS7 - Lightweight 'run and gun' setup by Ben Scott, on Flickr

Or upto 240fps 1080p in raw or pro res in this one

Sony FS7 - Full handhelp setup with Odyssey 7Q, Follow Focus and mattebox by Ben Scott, on Flickr

is very hard to beat for a hell of a lot of jobs.

I think any Red camera is still going to be more specialised in terms of the projects in which it is a clear front runner as the obvious choice. But if I can have the equivalent Red package in not too much bulkier a package then it would open a lot of doors.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

It's true that this package is small and versatile.
To bad Fs7 has this Sony picture look. I don't know if the Raven @ 4k will also display some aliasing like the Fs7. We will have to test it out.

Pat

 

[Ben Scott]

If you know how to shoot with the camera in Cine-EI mode you can do what you want with it. Personally while something commonly repeated I think that's as lazy a generalisation as people saying Epic MX skintones are horrific.

Anyway I digress... Jarred, give me a reason to get back into Red in a big way

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I understand what you say. But even on the F5 there is a picture look IMHO that is seen since the PD-150, Z1, Ex1,... Red has also a look even if you can change the character to "match" other cameras it will stay in the DNA of the picture. I don't think it's only due to the handling of the Picture profile.

Pat