#4K4ALL

[David Mullen ASC]

Not sure why Red decided to cut the Dragon sensor down to a 4K/20.47mm size rather than 4.5K/23.03mm -- at 4.5K you'd have the option of either recording 4.5K and using nearly a Super-35 sensor or using 4K and having a look around area. Of course, that would add a little tiny bit more weight I suppose and would require more processing power if you wanted to get up to 120 fps at 4.5K.

 

[Phil Holland]

Not sure why Red decided to cut the Dragon sensor down to a 4K/20.47mm size rather than 4.5K/23.03mm -- at 4.5K you'd have the option of either recording 4.5K and using nearly a Super-35 sensor or using 4K and having a look around area. Of course, that would add a little tiny bit more weight I suppose and would require more processing power if you wanted to get up to 120 fps at 4.5K.

Not sure either, however, I think it's down to manufacturing cost. Meaning the sensor manufacturing process itself and that specific cut size from the wafer. I think this might be one of the keys to helping get Raven down below a certain price point.

Scarlet Dragon seems to still be the 5K/S35 option. Of course that's commonly shot with 6K Dragons as well as a format that exists in there.

 

[Maik Müller]

I don't see "one solution" to the format size confusion, equation, understanding, and naming convention.

...

HOWEVER, much like the DPs I learned from throughout the early part of my career, I find it's easier to have a "general mindset" about format size using ONE THING.

What is my "normal lens"? Which means, which is the approximate focal length that equates to a similar FOV of the general human experience.

The way that works out for me is:

S16 - 25mm (3/4-perf)
S35 - 35mm (3/4-perf)
FF35 - 50mm (8-perf)
65mm - 80mm (5-perf)
70mm - 110mm (15-perf)

Thanks for another great post, need to bookmark it. I don't know how many times i have tried to explain this (and that a focal length doesn't magically change to something else on a smaller/bigger sensor) to others.

That normal lens approach is so much easier to memorize and way more logical...

Anyways back to Raven

To get the most out of Raven I'd lean towards S35/APS-C glass if there's a 4K Dragon sensor in there.

I'm glad i didn't sell the SIGMA 18-35/1.8 ART yet...

 

[sam karr]

Not sure why Red decided to cut the Dragon sensor down to a 4K/20.47mm size rather than 4.5K/23.03mm -- at 4.5K you'd have the option of either recording 4.5K and using nearly a Super-35 sensor or using 4K and having a look around area. Of course, that would add a little tiny bit more weight I suppose and would require more processing power if you wanted to get up to 120 fps at 4.5K.

Maybe they want to protect the scarlet and epic dragon too. Between a 5k scarlet dragon with limited slowmo and a 4.5k camera, with 120fps in a new weapon body I would not hesitate and would get the Raven in a second. But 4k is a bit too cropped for my taste. I guess I would not be the only one. Even versus the epic, at this price, there would be some people hesitating.

 

[Maik Müller]

Not sure either, however, I think it's down to manufacturing cost. Meaning the sensor manufacturing process itself and that specific cut size from the wafer. I think this might be one of the keys to helping get Raven down below a certain price point.

I guess it helps to make those 8k-sensors in a more cost-effective way too.

RAVEN sensors probably come from the same waver/line as those 8k-sensors, so it just makes sense to split one of them into 4 smaller pieces.

I wish WEAPON VV would be 9k and then move up to a even bigger 12k-sensor.

 

[sam karr]

I'm really curious about the 120fps part. It seems the Raven can do 5:1 @4K 24fps. Like the scarlet dragon. But the scarlet can't do more than 60fps @13:1. What is the trick? Prores? Or is it almost as powerfull as the epic until 4K?

 

[Maik Müller]

I'm really curious about the 120fps part. It seems the Raven can do 5:1 @4K 24fps. Like the scarlet dragon. But the scarlet can't do more than 60fps @13:1. What is the trick? Prores? Or is it almost as powerfull as the epic until 4K?

RAVEN was set to REDCODE in that video, not to PRORES. The trick are newer chips, more powerful, but probably not exactly as powerful as EPIC. It's likely that RAVEN will be somewhat limited at compression ratios compared to EPIC.

 

[Phil Holland]

Maybe they want to protect the scarlet and epic dragon too. Between a 5k scarlet dragon with limited slowmo and a 4.5k camera, with 120fps in a new weapon body I would not hesitate and would get the Raven in a second. But 4k is a bit too cropped for my taste. I guess I would not be the only one. Even versus the epic, at this price, there would be some people hesitating.

I have a provocative and hypothetical question Sam, if RED was to offer a 4.5K cut of the Dragon sensor to include in Raven (likely 4.5K 6:1 for 24fps would be the spec), how much more would you be realistically willing to pay for that camera?

I'm asking not just for myself, but I'd bet RED would be interested in knowing as well.

I'm really curious about the 120fps part. It seems the Raven can do 5:1 @4K 24fps. Like the scarlet dragon. But the scarlet can't do more than 60fps @13:1. What is the trick? Prores? Or is it almost as powerfull as the epic until 4K?

I'm guessing it's down to pipes and processing power, which really mains data transfer rates. Scarlet Dragon is 72MB/s and Epic Dragon is 200MB/s. I'm guessing Raven is something more than 72MB/s and less than 200MB/s in there.

 

[Mike P.]

I think it comes back to cutting 8k VV dragon down into four 4k quadrants. Any more than 4k and you're essentially making the yields 1:1 instead of 4:1, and your price-per-sensor goes back up to Scarlet/Epic-Dragon levels...

 

[Dean Butler]

4.5k would make a big difference to a lot of people IMO both for the resolution wiggle room and the tad less crop factor (dare I say those two words)

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I don't know what to make of this cost of the sensor angle as the tech is old now and the 8k size is no benchmark of anything. But what I would say is that as we all are very aware of the quality difference between Red 4k and Red 4K downscaled - if Raven were made to be the Weapon gateway, then I think a lot of people who do content, even TV stuff would be persuaded to migrate. And I do think they would pay a premium for that. To me it is the smart move. We know - look at NFS comments already - that comparisons will start to Ursa and C300M2 immediately. Nice clean modern looking pictures (and who cares how they are achieved). But if Raven can have a slightly beefier sibling that allows a 4K from a 5K (kind of the old Canon trick with the 1080 from the 4K chip) then you know that pictures is going to be KA and you might get people even considering up/down-grading from Epic or Scarlet Dragon to get a toe in the Weapon future with enough horsepower for what they need. Blue sky. Blue skY

 

[Corey_O]

I think it comes back to cutting 8k VV dragon down into four 4k quadrants. Any more than 4k and you're essentially making the yields 1:1 instead of 4:1, and your price-per-sensor goes back up to Scarlet/Epic-Dragon levels...

When making cuts of 8k VV how are you justifying 4:1 yields? Starting with a larger 8k VV sensor? adjusted for cuts………I could be wrong am I missing something?

I looked for 4k announcement must have missed it.

 

[Maik Müller]

4.5k would make a big difference to a lot of people IMO both for the resolution wiggle room and the tad less crop factor (dare I say those two words)

4.5k doesn't add up when it comes to production. You can't cut 4.5k-sensors out of the 8k-wafers or 6k-wafers, it doesn't make sense. It would need development of new wafers, which means price would go up.

The one and only thing that would make sense is putting 6k-Dragons inside of RAVEN, but again, that means a higher price-point and going into EPIC/WEAPON territory. We all remember what an upgrade from MX to DRAGON did cost. There is room for such a camera. 6k-DRAGON, WEAPON/RAVEN-style body, interchangeable lens mount, just not as powerful - the Scarlet-specced DSMC²-body (but i hope for Full-Sensor-motion this time). 10kUSD for body only? Probably more

RAVEN became possible because of the 8k-VV sensor-line, it's cheap because of the unified sensor-production/development. It's just super-smart.

As i said, if WEAPON-VV would have been 9k or more....

 

[Ben Scott]

I don't know what to make of this cost of the sensor angle as the tech is old now

The tech that is currently shooting blockbuster Hollywood movies. In a camera costing $6,000.

Some people want the moon on a stick.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Are we seriously saying that you can cut an 8K sensor with 0 waste? Sounds too literal to me so someone please enlighten on how sensors are actually made. Anyways. On one of Jarred's Raven posts there was a little window that said the 4K was selected with No Look Around. What is the Look Around? Does that mean there is in fact more to this sensor.
I am hoping yes.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

The tech that is currently shooting blockbuster Hollywood movies. In a camera costing $6,000.

Some people want the moon on a stick.

What is shooting the Hollywood Blockbuster is a 6K dragon not 4KHD or whatever. That is the moon on a stick.

 

[Ben Scott]

Wow.

 

[sam karr]

Maybe Red will surprise us with 2 Raven flavors, Raven 4k and Raven 5k which will replace the Scarlet Dragon with an upgrade program. Then "4k4ALL" would even make more sense, 4k for indies in a budget and "real" 4K for people caring about the resolution and s35 format. It would complete the lineup: Raven 4K, 5K, Weapon 6K, 8K.
The announcement is on friday and we almost know everything about the camera already. I would not be surprised if they're keeping some hidden stuffs. And there was this picture with "raven12" and "raven24".

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I am hopeful there are two Raven flavors. There is that whole Raven 12 and 24 thing and what mystery does that hold? And as I say if you look back at Jarred posts. What do the words No Look Around mean? By which I mean if you activate Look around in 4K what sensor size is that.
Innocent question.

 

[Robert Gustafsson]

Those are not different models - those are just camera IDs. Pre-Production RAVEN #12 and RAVEN #24.

Camera IDs...