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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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Christoffer Glans said:
It looks like the front is a one piece. Either this is the old fixed lens camera or this is a micro four thirds camera that they also showed years ago updated into weapon form. Either way, it doesn't look like you can change mounts on it which means... something. :tongue_smilie:



I doubt a price drop just four, five months after they got people upgrading. Also, why would people get a Weapon 6K when they can have an Epic Dragon for a fraction of the price?
Click to expand...

You mean 2/3?

I don't recall 4/3.
 
I doubt it's M4/3. Don't think RED is doing a new (smaller) sensor, a better way to reduce costs is baking those 6k-dragon sensor in masses. The sensor-box will probably share the same design, use the same OLPFs. That would result in the same focal flange distance, too big for M4/3 and E, but great for EF. EF is becoming a widely accepted standard and is one of the mounts that makes most sense in RED's ecosystem. If they really go with just one fixed lens-mount (and not user-configurable during the order-process) then it's probably going to be EF. You can still use PL-adaptors or put Nikon- and MF-glass on it.

For me the biggest loss that comes with a fixed lens-mount is not being able to put the Motion-Mount on it.

Whatever, RAVEN totally looks like something i want to have. :)
 
If, as one might expect, the Raven has less processing muscle than a Weapon, perhaps that will constrain the ability to write ProRes and RedCode simultaneously. Perhaps RED would offer an optional ProRes recorder that gets signal from the brain via pins, cable or GigE - though, there may be so many 3rd party options out there that RED stays on the sidelines. So many unknowns.

Cheers - #19
 
I've posted my general thoughts during the earlier released images here and here.

However, things are becoming clearer while something else isn't exactly as clear.

I still think Raven is an entry level offering and standing with my initial thoughts.

However.

What's very interesting to me "thus far" is Jarred's "Ravens love Dragons" drop a bit ago. We haven't seen the top of Raven, and by top I mean the area above the lens mount itself.

If we go by what we've seen with the Weapon bodies that's where we see "Dragon 6K" or "Dragon 8K". This informs us of the sensor design, resolution, and the physical sensor size that comes with it.

We haven't seen that on Raven just yet. So it still makes one wonder if Dragon is inside of Raven. I think it is personally. I also think it might be a 5K "cut" of the wafer to help lower costs perhaps. However, it could indeed be a new sensor in there, though that would be really surprising.

RED definitely played this one close to the chest for sure. The general idea of a camera targeting the entry level price range of digital cinema cameras makes a lot of sense and has been a good idea for a while.

I think back to Scarlet-X's initial launch back in November 2011 right when Canon was dropping their C300 news and RED dropped the bombshell of an affordable entry level 4K digital cinema camera when Canon was very keen on 1080p for whatever reason. Scarlet-X in my mind is/was the deal of the year as it provided a lot of bang for the buck at the time. If I recall correctly, that was $9,750 for the Canon EF Mount equipped one and $11,250 for the PL Mount equipped model.

I wonder where RAVEN falls within all of this. I also wonder where the differences in price and features between RAVEN and WEAPON will land.
 
Phil Holland said:
I've posted my general thoughts during the earlier released images here and here.

However, things are becoming clearer while something else isn't exactly as clear.

I still think Raven is an entry level offering and standing with my initial thoughts.

However.

What's very interesting to me "thus far" is Jarred's "Ravens love Dragons" drop a bit ago. We haven't seen the top of Raven, and by top I mean the area above the lens mount itself.

If we go by what we've seen with the Weapon bodies that's where we see "Dragon 6K" or "Dragon 8K". This informs us of the sensor design, resolution, and the physical sensor size that comes with it.

We haven't seen that on Raven just yet. So it still makes one wonder if Dragon is inside of Raven. I think it is personally. I also think it might be a 5K "cut" of the wafer to help lower costs perhaps. However, it could indeed be a new sensor in there, though that would be really surprising.

RED definitely played this one close to the chest for sure. The general idea of a camera targeting the entry level price range of digital cinema cameras makes a lot of sense and has been a good idea for a while.

I think back to Scarlet-X's initial launch back in November 2011 right when Canon was dropping their C300 news and RED dropped the bombshell of an affordable entry level 4K digital cinema camera when Canon was very keen on 1080p for whatever reason. Scarlet-X in my mind is/was the deal of the year as it provided a lot of bang for the buck at the time. If I recall correctly, that was $9,750 for the Canon EF Mount equipped one and $11,250 for the PL Mount equipped model.

I wonder where RAVEN falls within all of this. I also wonder where the differences in price and features between RAVEN and WEAPON will land.
Click to expand...
The odd thing is though, is how does it fit in line with the current Scarlet Dragon? That's what's having me scratching my head. (Price wise)

4K 120fps would be awesome, (as a S-D owner), but if it costs the same, or less than a Scarlet Dragon, well that sucks for me, and all Scarlet Dragon owners. If it's an upgrade, lets say it's around the same $15k for body like Scarlet Dragon is, do we pay another $10k to upgrade, when we already paid $15k for it originally? I'm thinking this is going to be in the Epics price range, due to 4k 120 fps. Just me though.

Just so many questions!
 
Adam Montville said:
The odd thing is though, is how does it fit in line with the current Scarlet Dragon? That's what's having me scratching my head. (Price wise)

4K 120fps would be awesome, (as a S-D owner), but if it costs the same, or less than a Scarlet Dragon, well that sucks for me, and all Scarlet Dragon owners. If it's an upgrade, lets say it's around the same $15k for body like Scarlet Dragon is, do we pay another $10k to upgrade, when we already paid $15k for it originally? I'm thinking this is going to be in the Epics price range, due to 4k 120 fps. Just me though.

Just so many questions!
Click to expand...

We don't know anything about compression. Maybe, if it's an entry level, the compression is much higher than Scarlet Dragon's redcode. And maybe then they offer 120fps at super high compression to fight Ursa etc.
 
sam karr said:
We don't know anything about compression. Maybe, if it's an entry level, the compression is much higher than Scarlet Dragon's redcode. And maybe then they offer 120fps at super high compression to fight Ursa etc.
Click to expand...
But the Scarlet Dragon's compression already hurts enough. The Ursa Mini can do 3:1 and 4:1 RAW, much better than even the Scarlet Dragon already. Ursa mini 4:1 at 60fps vs Scarlet dragon 16:1. I'm not going to lie that I "thought" about leaving the Red camp with those compression numbers, as I shoot nature a lot, and anything higher than 10:1 breaks down trees very poorly.

And with the Weapon form factor, I don't see the compression getting worse imo.
 
Adam Montville said:
I'm not going to lie that I "thought" about leaving the Red camp with those compression numbers, as I shoot nature a lot, and anything higher than 10:1 breaks down trees very poorly.
Click to expand...

i think a lot of us are in the same boat as we see the competition closing in. Let's hope this camera changes that...
 
Adam Montville said:
But the Scarlet Dragon's compression already hurts enough. The Ursa Mini can do 3:1 and 4:1 RAW, much better than even the Scarlet Dragon already. Ursa mini 4:1 at 60fps vs Scarlet dragon 16:1. I'm not going to lie that I "thought" about leaving the Red camp with those compression numbers, as I shoot nature a lot, and anything higher than 10:1 breaks down trees very poorly.

And with the Weapon form factor, I don't see the compression getting worse imo.
Click to expand...

So... You realise that comparing those compression numbers is like comparing apples to oranges, right? Different compression algorithms, different methods, different numbers, just plain different. RED RAW R3D is different than the RAW that BM uses, RAW is really just a marketing term for a whole bucketload of different things.
 
Glen Powell said:
So... You realise that comparing those compression numbers is like comparing apples to oranges, right? Different compression algorithms, different methods, different numbers, just plain different. RED RAW R3D is different than the RAW that BM uses, RAW is really just a marketing term for a whole bucketload of different things.
Click to expand...

Sure, but the data rate and image doesn't lie. Scarlet dragon at 24p, 8:1, 5k -> 64MB/s

Mini Ursa 4.6k (going off specs),
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 180 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 135 MB/s

135/2 to get to Red's "8:1 compression" = 67.5.

I don't like comparing the 2 cameras in this thread, but the compression is most definitely better. (Even if it is less efficient, etc, the numbers are there..)
 
Adam Montville said:
Sure, but the data rate and image doesn't lie. Scarlet dragon at 24p, 8:1, 5k -> 64MB/s

Mini Ursa 4.6k (going off specs),
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 180 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 135 MB/s

135/2 to get to Red's "8:1 compression" = 67.5.

I don't like comparing the 2 cameras in this thread, but the compression is most definitely better. (Even if it is less efficient, etc, the numbers are there..)
Click to expand...

I see where you are going - and we're not arriving at the same place.
 
Adam Montville said:
Sure, but the data rate and image doesn't lie. Scarlet dragon at 24p, 8:1, 5k -> 64MB/s

Mini Ursa 4.6k (going off specs),
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 180 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 135 MB/s

135/2 to get to Red's "8:1 compression" = 67.5.

I don't like comparing the 2 cameras in this thread, but the compression is most definitely better. (Even if it is less efficient, etc, the numbers are there..)
Click to expand...

The difference is really not huge between 5:1 and 8:1, it's impossible to tell without having both images side by side, and even then you don't notice. Red did a great job on dragon compression. I'm super happy with the scarlet dragon compression. I don't know how people are dealing with that on an epic. My cards are already getting full super fast, I can't imagine @6K 5:1. ANd Ursa will be the same in that regard. At the end, who will really notice the difference?
 
sam karr said:
The difference is really not huge between 5:1 and 8:1, it's impossible to tell without having both images side by side, and even then you don't notice. Red did a great job on dragon compression. I'm super happy with the scarlet dragon compression. I don't know how people are dealing with that on an epic. My cards are already getting full super fast, I can't imagine @6K 5:1. ANd Ursa will be the same in that regard. At the end, who will really notice the difference?
Click to expand...
I would agree that 8:1 does look great, for MOST shots. There have been plenty though that would have loved to have the less compression, and makes me eager to have an Epic. I've had shots completely unusable at 10:1 (that's 5k 30fps mind you), due to macroblocking scattering all around the trees, etc. Even 8:1 has noticeable macroblocking if there is enough detail in the shot. A close up of someones face, you are right, 8:1 vs 5:1 won't be any different.

Wide shot of thousands of leaves, etc, the 5:1 will beat it every time.

I don't even think the 120fps in the Scarlet Dragon is even usable in a real production tbh. It does not look good. While the 120fps 1080p of the Mini I bet would hold up just fine up-scaling to 4k.

That's what's making me drool about the 4k 120fps on the Raven at the moment.
 
Adam Montville said:
I would agree that 8:1 does look great, for MOST shots. There have been plenty though that would have loved to have the less compression, and makes me eager to have an Epic. I've had shots completely unusable at 10:1 (that's 5k 30fps mind you), due to macroblocking scattering all around the trees, etc. Even 8:1 has noticeable macroblocking if there is enough detail in the shot. A close up of someones face, you are right, 8:1 vs 5:1 won't be any different.

Wide shot of thousands of leaves, etc, the 5:1 will beat it every time.

I don't even think the 120fps in the Scarlet Dragon is even usable in a real production tbh. It does not look good. While the 120fps 1080p of the Mini I bet would hold up just fine up-scaling to 4k.

That's what's making me drool about the 4k 120fps on the Raven at the moment.
Click to expand...

Yup, i agree. 10:1 ruined a few shots for me over the past few years. Even 8:1 has problems with details sometimes. 3:1 to 5:1 whenever possible!
 
Glen Powell said:
You realise that comparing those compression numbers is like comparing apples to oranges, right?
Click to expand...

More like Dolby to DTS. :) That did not stop people from claiming 1.5 Mbps DTS was superior to 448 kHz Dolby Digital based on bitrate alone. People did get it with lower bitrate VC-1/AVC vs. MPEG-2 though.
 
Adam Montville said:
Sure, but the data rate and image doesn't lie. Scarlet dragon at 24p, 8:1, 5k -> 64MB/s

Mini Ursa 4.6k (going off specs),
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 180 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 135 MB/s

135/2 to get to Red's "8:1 compression" = 67.5.


I don't like comparing the 2 cameras in this thread, but the compression is most definitely better. (Even if it is less efficient, etc, the numbers are there..)
Click to expand...

You have your Red numbers wrong. I think you are comparing 5K to 4.6k even which your numbers are still wrong.

If you compare Red 4.5k @ 8:1 it is 46 MB/sec using their online calculator which I think is the sweet spot for both shooting and post.

CinemaDNG looks great because its very little compression but please shoot me in the head if I need to be the one that deals with that 180M MB/s after I shoot it. That is over 10 Gigabytes each and every minute. SSD's do not handle recording at that rate continuously either, do a google search for " corrupt blackmagic footage " .

FWIW, Both REDCODE and CINEDNG is better than that XAVC Sony makes you record in. All the under $20k Sony cameras record at 100mbps ( 12MB/s ) and the compression artifacts are crazy and the effects from the heavy noise reduction they use to get rid of those artifacts takes its toll.
 
'Metal and microphones.'

Absent by the look of it.

Would make sense if the Raven is designed for drone/gimbal use.

Same with the fixed lens mount, if it allows for lighter and perhaps cheaper construction.

'Ravens love Dragons.'

Would RED really keep fabricating MX sensors or develop a newer than Dragon sensor just for this use? Not likely imo. Not even sure a different cut of the same Dragon sensor would be worth it.

'4K @ 120fps.'

But using double digit compression according to that out of focus part of the monitor screenshot.

The Epic Dragon, using a 512GB Mini-Mag can do REDCODE 9:1 @ 120fps 4K.

The Scarlet Dragon maxes out with REDCODE 13:1 @ 60fps 4K, and would need to drop down to 2K to reach 120fps (@ REDCODE 7:1).

So, the Raven isn't just an Epic Dragon with wings. But using the Weapon form-factor and its beefier processors (or at least some of them), it could be something like a Scarlet Dragon with a higher than 13:1 REDCODE reaching 120fps.

Which makes me wonder what REDCODE ratio it could achieve at 24fps 4K, and whether that would allow it to shoot 5K at a lower REDCODE than the Scarlet Dragon's 8:1 @24fps.

Curious to see if the Raven does in fact turn out to be more of a specialized drone/gimbal oriented RED camera, or whether RED decide to kill two birds with one...umm...bird, and make this the new de-facto Scarlet Weapon.
 
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