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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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Yeah I think this camera is going to open up some options for me as a scarlet user. Yeah my scarlet value is most likely going to go down more, which is expected, but relative to scarlet D and Epic mx prices I would assume. Of course scarlet D will have some sort of an upgrade path, or lateral/down path to raven depending on how you look at it. Still hoping for an mx to raven path, I know we were told that dragon was the path, but...... who knows what RED will do :)
 
This is a summary of all that we know so far (confidence levels apart from certainty are my own):

Certain:
- 120fps
- 4K
- Lightweight

High confidence:
- Redcode

Medium confidence:
- Micro 4/3 mount
- Sensor within Micro 4/3 image circle
- Dragon technology

Low confidence:
- Smaller body (I wish!)

Very low confidence:
- ProRes
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
This is a summary of all that we know so far (confidence levels apart from certainty are my own):

Certain:
- 120fps
- 4K
- Lightweight

High confidence:
- Redcode

Medium confidence:
- Micro 4/3 mount
- Sensor within Micro 4/3 image circle
- Dragon technology

Low confidence:
- Smaller body (I wish!)

Very low confidence:
- ProRes
Click to expand...

Karim,
That's a pretty good assessment.
 
well they can't have prores and auto black shades can they at this price point? i imagine something has to give compared to the 6k weapon...and I'm betting that something is more than resolution/frame rates...if the raven has a lot of the weapon functionality i could see it cannobolizing higher end sales too...
 
6k vs 4k, seems pretty big to me. Compression and a few other things dialed down as well I'm sure.
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
This is a summary of all that we know so far (confidence levels apart from certainty are my own):

Certain:
- 120fps
- 4K
- Lightweight

High confidence:
- Redcode

Medium confidence:
- Micro 4/3 mount
- Sensor within Micro 4/3 image circle
- Dragon technology

Low confidence:
- Smaller body (I wish!)

Very low confidence:
- ProRes
Click to expand...

As an aspirational RED owner, a package like this would be a very tempting entry point. I'm excited!
 
Brian Merlen said:
well designing a new sensor hardly seems like a way to keep costs low... so maybe its just a throttled dragon sensor? or it scales 6k->4k?

no idea but new sensor seems unlikely vs reusing dragon or hell even MX, though i think reusing MX is honestly out of the question.

PS Jarred can we please donate all those used MX cameras to schools under the guise of philanthropy? you'd make the difference up on accessories and new buyers man! i mean not that none of us are down for another flash sale like BT red ones but i think the guise of philanthropy would go over better in that current owners won't bitch and moan about the fire sales impact on the used market, and all the schools get hooked up and lose their PD150s and old crap (particularly state schools and community colleges vs top film schools). id like to think my input previously helped guide your team with the trade ins (jim flipped out on me when i suggested the perpetual trade ins, which you then ran with the idea perpetually). i also suggested the skateboard marketing thing, and while my other two ideas were great i really think this school one beats scraping the copper out of the MXs man or another flash sale? so idk how to get my two cents across but i really hope you read it and consider it, esp since it looks like all us Dragon owners are moving up to weapon/raven so clearly MXs being distributed could matter less for the weapon marketability...
Click to expand...

They didn't design a new sensor. they just cut a smaller piece out of the CMOS die = higher yield and cheaper. If they combine this with the cheaper ASICs of the recent years (or perhaps even rehousing existing ASICs) then they could end up with a pretty cheap cam.
 
OK, so only 4k.

That makes it a DMC and not a DSMC. It also means it is no longer a 1Dc replacement for me—too bad. Anyway, let's look at 4k:

It can be one to two (three) things:


  1. A S35 or larger sensor that is being read and scaled in camera to 4k. That would likely mean ProRes. It's not Redcode. EF mount.
  2. A 4k crop out of current RED sensors. It would mean a smaller than S35 image circle, potentially with another mount than EF. Can be Redcode or other codec like ProRes.
  3. Well, it can also be a new sensor with larger pixels. Unlikely.


Option 1 would be really attractive and appeal to a huge number of users, depending on camera price. I'm unsure about the power needed to do the in camera scaling at the frame rates we already know about. This camera would fit right in and doesn't need much explanation.

Option 2 has some pros and cons. Smaller sensor can actually be an asset for certain types of work: documentary, drone and gimbal. Certain events. But I'm not sure about the light gathering capacity of RED's sensor. The work this camera would be destined for is typically available light... It could be launched a la Backmagic with an EF mount. Large crop on EF/EF-S lenses can be problematic in terms of finding good, fast glass at wide angles. An 'alternative' mount is possible. That's the "me too" crowd and the camera would tick boxes like: RED branding, Redcode (raw)… It could be a great camera for video oriented shooters who aren't invested in larger glass.
Not having any type of auto focus would hurt it—in a big way. Feels like it might turn out too expensive for what you get, once it's rigged and shooting ready?

I'm intrigued. I really hope Raven will be a strong contender, but I feel we're missing a few pieces. I would be great if there is something NEW about this camera that connects the dots.

My internal video target remains: 4k60+ | 14+ stops | 10bit+, 422+, 220Mbit+, intraframe, internal | log profile | S35+ | EF mount | Dual Pixel like AF | handholdable form factor and weight | integrated power 2h | CFast 2.0 | ND filter 6 stops | excellent ISO 1600, good 3200, usable 6400.

Writing this with no camera in mind, I realise C300 mkII only misses 60fps @4k. But I want the same camera to do 18MP+ raw stills.
 
I shoot a ton if wide angle shots. I hope it's not a crop of the 6K but a S35 4K sensor with no pixel binning.
 
Adam Rook said:
I shoot a ton if wide angle shots. I hope it's not a crop of the 6K but a S35 4K sensor with no pixel binning.
Click to expand...

With RED going 8k, meaning even smaller pixels, I find the development of a new, large pixel sensor highly unlikely. Still, it would be one of the things that would explain a lot and make everything fall into place. I don't believe it though.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Well... RED has tried out scaled RGB/YUV now for Dragon....
Click to expand...

You're right!

If it's internally scaled 4K from 5K or 6K it would be huge!

Besides, I think that for keeping the price down they are using all the sensors they got from the trade-ins.

It makes sense and it would even be eco-friendly! ;)
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
I think the photosites on the VistaVision Dragon are the same size as on the standard Dragon.
Click to expand...

Ah, you're right... they're just increasing the sensor size? I'm not up to speed on that since it's not on my radar…

But the 4k crop on dragon is close 1.9 or something...? Well… it's a decent size sensor even at that....

Going back and checking the size I'm guessing 4k crop out of Dragon and EF mount.
 
AndreeMarkefors said:
Going back and checking the size I'm guessing 4k crop out of Dragon and EF mount.
Click to expand...

Of course it's like religion - each of us has very passionate views on lens mounts! My religion says, yes, Micro 4/3 image circle is good, but EF mount is betrayal, as your lens choice is limited. And, if the sensor is Micro 4/3, why not a Micro 4/3 mount? :-) Lots of good native Micro 4/3 lenses, too, if you want to use them. Leica makes a few.
 
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