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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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Kemalettin Sert said:
how do we know it has dragon sensor?
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Same gig as Scarlet - those parts that don't make the performance quality cut for full price Weapon are culled out for Raven use. That way your yield is close to 100% thereby reducing your costs. There's not going to be a new sensor, body style etc. It's going to be a Scarlet Weapon which uses most of Weapon accessories. Bookmark this post ;-)
 
Steven Hilder said:
I don't recall Red ever saying that Scarlet sensors were QC hand-downs from Epic; you're thinking of the ASICs, surely?
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Edit: performance not to Dragon spec so used in Scarlet. Why change that program? Works for everyone since it increases yields and provides an entry level product. They're using the same sensor for Weapon as Dragon - do you really think they would invent a new one for Raven? Micro 43?? That would not provide economies of scale for their existing supply chain and accessories, mounts, media etc

Product Binning Definition via Wiki:
Semiconductor manufacturing is an imprecise process, sometimes achieving as low as 30% yield. Defects in manufacturing are not always fatal, however; in many cases it is possible to salvage part of a failed batch of integrated circuits by modifying performance characteristics. For example, by reducing the clock frequency or disabling non-critical parts that are defective, the parts can be sold at a lower price, fulfilling the needs of lower-end market segments. This practice occurs throughout the semiconductor industry
 
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Lots of people have been speculating an MFT mount, but the flange focal distance looks to be the same as Weapon's, so I don't see how that could work. Unless...

Gavin Greenwalt said:
Would be interesting if it were M4/3s and had an integrated in speedbooster.
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That's an interesting idea - although of course changing OLPF gets tricky with optics in the way ;)
 
Zeb B said:
Edit: performance not to Dragon spec so used in Scarlet. Why change that program?
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Yeah, that's what I was getting at - I had no idea that Scarlet Dragon sensors might be in any way inferior to Epic Dragon sensors.

I'm familiar with the description of binning that you mention but I figured that the rules for salvaging general semiconductors wouldn't really apply to imaging sensors. What kind of 'performance' could be lost from poor sensor yields? My understanding is that dynamic range and noise characteristics are inherent in a sensor's design. Other than chips that are simply DOA, I thought the only other variable was number of dead/hot pixels...? (which are presumably dealt with in firmware)

Anyway, I'm really no expert on fabrication, so I've probably got it all wrong.

Zeb B said:
They're using the same sensor for Weapon as Dragon - do you really think they would invent a new one for Raven? Micro 43??
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Um, I didn't say or imply that they would. I've no idea what sensor will be in Raven, although I really like the idea of using old R1 MX sensors if it pushes Raven's price down lower :)
 
i kind of look forward to this announcement in that i really want a personal camera i can just shoot on that is good quality but somewhat cost effective and my higher priced models are great but consistently rented so for me personally if an old red or a raven gets me what i consider decent quality for a limited budget i'd be happy. and i could care less if its s35 or whatever id make it work somehow... the main thing being i don't know how much to justify on another purchase being that i owe red another 35k+ for my upgrade still on my higher ended machine...
 
Steven Hilder said:
Yeah, that's what I was getting at - I had no idea that Scarlet Dragon sensors might be in any way inferior to Epic Dragon sensors.

I'm familiar with the description of binning that you mention but I figured that the rules for salvaging general semiconductors wouldn't really apply to imaging sensors. What kind of 'performance' could be lost from poor sensor yields? My understanding is that dynamic range and noise characteristics are inherent in a sensor's design. Other than chips that are simply DOA, I thought the only other variable was number of dead/hot pixels...? (which are presumably dealt with in firmware)

Anyway, I'm really no expert on fabrication, so I've probably got it all wrong.



Um, I didn't say or imply that they would. I've no idea what sensor will be in Raven, although I really like the idea of using old R1 MX sensors if it pushes Raven's price down lower :)
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Binning can be all things electronic - not just sensors. In procuring any specific electronic component, the cost between the top performing 10% bin and the bottom 10% can be huge . . . for the same part. Way more than the cost difference from Al to Mg to Carbon etc on body materials. What the Military or NASA uses in their critical equipment is quality that we will never be able to buy at the consumer level. It's top .001% of the bin and real expensive.

My thought is to split the product line along the binning principal: You want real high frame rate at 6K+ then you need to use the top performing bins of every internal component / media and be ready to pay the price for it. If blazing data rates are of no importance (instead you just want that dreamy RED image) then have a model that shoots 6K @24fps at a entry level price since lower performing components can be used. That's kinda the concept of Scarlet and I'll bet Raven.

Body material cost are nickels and dimes compared to the cost of top 5% binning. Like a F1 race car . . . the cost is in the perfect, ridiculous performance internal components . . . not the paint job ;-)
 
I'm actually getting more excited now that it doesn't shoot 5k because the less features the less expensive it will be. Now it's just figuring out ballpark price. I'm guessing scarlet MX pricing or lower. $4k for 4k (body only) sounds reasonable because there will be about $5k in accessories needed.
 
Zeb B said:
Binning can be all things electronic - not just sensors. In procuring any specific electronic component, the cost between the top performing 10% bin and the bottom 10% can be huge . . . for the same part. Way more than the cost difference from Al to Mg to Carbon etc on body materials. What the Military or NASA uses in their critical equipment is quality that we will never be able to buy at the consumer level. It's top .001% of the bin and real expensive.
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I'm not sure why you've elaborated on this when I already said that I understood binning, but yes, the economic impact is obvious. I was simply querying whether any of the factors that influence yield in sensors affect a camera's usable performance. You seem to be saying that data-rate does. I figured that the clock frequency of the sensor would always be massively limited by the processing ability of the DSP. Hence why it was salvaged ASICs that made Scarlet-X feasible, not salvaged MX sensors (AFAIK).

Zeb B said:
My thought is to split the product line along the binning principal: You want real high frame rate at 6K+ then you need to use the top performing bins of every internal component / media and be ready to pay the price for it. If blazing data rates are of no importance (instead you just want that dreamy RED image) then have a model that shoots 6K @24fps at a entry level price since lower performing components can be used. That's kinda the concept of Scarlet and I'll bet Raven.
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That does sound logical, but we already know that Raven won't shoot 6K (or even 5K) at any speed. That's why I find it odd that you're so convinced about Raven using salvaged 6K Dragon sensors.
 
well designing a new sensor hardly seems like a way to keep costs low... so maybe its just a throttled dragon sensor? or it scales 6k->4k?

no idea but new sensor seems unlikely vs reusing dragon or hell even MX, though i think reusing MX is honestly out of the question.

PS Jarred can we please donate all those used MX cameras to schools under the guise of philanthropy? you'd make the difference up on accessories and new buyers man! i mean not that none of us are down for another flash sale like BT red ones but i think the guise of philanthropy would go over better in that current owners won't bitch and moan about the fire sales impact on the used market, and all the schools get hooked up and lose their PD150s and old crap (particularly state schools and community colleges vs top film schools). id like to think my input previously helped guide your team with the trade ins (jim flipped out on me when i suggested the perpetual trade ins, which you then ran with the idea perpetually). i also suggested the skateboard marketing thing, and while my other two ideas were great i really think this school one beats scraping the copper out of the MXs man or another flash sale? so idk how to get my two cents across but i really hope you read it and consider it, esp since it looks like all us Dragon owners are moving up to weapon/raven so clearly MXs being distributed could matter less for the weapon marketability...
 
Brian Merlen said:
well designing a new sensor hardly seems like a way to keep costs low... so maybe its just a throttled dragon sensor? or it scales 6k->4k?
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Scaling usually takes even more processing horsepower, although of course scaling algorithms vary widely in quality/cost ratio. However, a 4K window from the centre of a 6K Dragon sensor is certainly a possibility.

By the way, I'm not entirely convinced that a new 4K Dragon sensor is out of the question. When we say "Dragon", aren't we talking about the underlying imaging technology; the pixel design, colour science etc. - not just one specific sensor in one size. Would it really be a huge investment to repurpose the same technology into a similar sensor design but with fewer pixels...? Maybe, maybe not - I suppose it depends on what kind of volumes Red are forecasting for Raven.

Anyway, as much as I'd love to see Raven priced at $5k or below, I don't see it happening. Jarred described Blackmagic as being "in the VERY low priced camera market" (emphasis mine). To me that sounds like a clear indication that Raven is targeted at the low-but-not-THAT-low-end crowd. I actually wouldn't be too surprised if it's $17,500 - after all, wouldn't 2006-era Red have described the R1 as '4K for all' at that price?
 
interesting no 5k, I was assuming that from the 4k4all. But with all the other things the camera is offering I wonder where this is going to sit compared to Scarlet D, as that shoots 5k 48 fps but with the old style body. Raven shooting 4k 120 fps, with the updated weoponized body and lots of new features, hmmmmm.
 
yea it seems really tough spot market wise... it has to be compelling enough to make people want it over a used MX or dragon... cuz the thing i keep going back to is i have a ton of parts left over after doing the weapon upgrade is my understanding, parts that would work great on a used MX or Dragon but can't work on weapon at all...so whatever raven is has to be good enough to take away the concept from my thinking....im assuming I'm going to get killed trying to sell my parts used, so that gives me a strong inventive to consider another used brain and i need raven to convince me otherwise is the premise I'm going with...
 
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