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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K NAB WARS

Marlon Torres said:
A camera doesn't determine what is "cinema". It is the story, performances, characters, and overall production. I love my RED gear but saying that the C300 isn't a true "cinema camera" is inaccurate because it can very well be. And yes, there's nothing wrong with having a camera that is capable of shooting in all natural light. Just ask Mr. Mallick and Lubezki.
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took the words right out of my mouth!!! I love all of it, and reasons being, I was never a hater of all the Dp's that the easy to get a hold of digital cameras sprouted up...good on you! but saturation of all this technology breeds mediocrity, and out of mediocrity comes seperation from genius,great,good,ok,palatable to shit...So more and more systems come out more we rely less on them and more on creativity!!!
 
Don't get me wrong, I fell in love with my 5d mkII the first time I held it. It changed how I shoot and lit a fire in me that still has not gone out.

I also think this announcement is what the Nov 3 2011 announcement should have been. The specs on both the cameras look interesting, and if I had $15 grand to blow I might just buy the EOS 1D-C.

My problem is that I love Canon but they are just off the mark ever since the C300. I mean why would I spend that $15 grand on the 1D-C for 4K 24fps when I could drop that into a Scarlet and get 4k at 24 - 30fps, not to mention shooting in RAW and on top of that I get HDRx. Granted the cost of media is quite a bit more, and the batteries are not the best.

Canon you really have forgotten about the camera and the people that really kicked off the DSLR movement. Stop dreaming about Hollywood and come back to us.

Again, very happy I went with Red.
 
The problem with the other guys isnt what they put out technologically speaking although to this point its been substandard and that includes everyone till the recent F65 but its the fact that they dont have the one thing RED does...HONOR to try their best to not leave you with a lump of coal that once may have cost you a years salary...have i said thanks JIM...; )
 
Mark Toia said:
.... Pitty it needs a RAW RECORDING DECK to go with it... but hey ! It's nice and cheap :)
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Different companies, different products, different perceptions, different philosophies. By leaving the recording solution to others, Canon can take advantage of those other companies redoubling their efforts to provide value added in those recording solutions in a way that would take Canon a long time to develop and be outside of their core competence. You can see this already in the announcement by Convergent of the Gemini Raw, which is designed to record RAW compressed or uncompressed, and simultaneously write a DNxHD file with matching metadata. To do that on any Red camera at this point also requires an external recorder, and it needs to be one that understands Red-specific metadata passing conventions. By concentrating on just the camera, Canon will likely accelerate development of these external recording solutions and their user base - as well as other manufacturers' user bases - will be the beneficiaries of more varied and feature filled data recording solutions much sooner. And many of them will likely be no larger than many of the accessories you already attach to your Epic. And, in some cases, use commodity media for certain formats.

As I said, different philosophies. When Red started, they had to come up with their own recording methods and media because there were no compact file based recording devices, and they've stuck with that because it's served them well. Today, that's not as necessary, and companies like Canon, Arri, and Sony are all taking advantage of that. Neither approach is right or wrong. Just different.
 
$25K with no recorder. And at 60 fps EOS RAW from the C500 is 12-bit, at 120p 10-bit.

That's not exactly a Scarlet or Epic killer to me.
 
The last TVC I shot on 35mm is 4 (sic!) years ago. I then shot all my stuff on the RedOne M sensor until a fortnight ago when I finally got the Epic-X. The interesting part is that neither the 35mm TVCs nor the TVCs I shot on my old RedOne had issues regarding picture quality. Like the RedOne Epic will serve me well the next 4 years and more. Do I have to worry about my investment? No. The Epic is finally the new 435 in a IIC form factor with it's ability to shoot full resolution at 120 fps. I'm finally there where I've been before the digital madness came into town.

A word to Canon, et al.: I'm used to solid camera bodies. I don't like plastic in my hands, I even find a pro-DSLR body too flimsy. I love viewfinders and convenient on-board recording. I hate camera designs that are made for palm-based operation. I love to put my camera on the shoulder, on the floor, and in a second back on the tripod. I don't want to be tethered. I don't like on-board audio, I prefer TC-based external audio. The only cameras that cope with my needs are Alexa and Epic. But Epic is much lighter and has a higher resolution. The latter is for particular interest to me because I'm used to zoom into the neg. in the telecine. I can't do that with Alexa. Hence Epic.

And thanks again for the the generous stage 3 deal!


Hans
 
Can someone please explain how an unproven camera that costs 25K with no upgrade path and no recorder is a competitor to my 15K absolutely kick ass Scarlet package? Add the recorder cost, and I could likely almost have two Scarlets.

Will someone please elaborate? Because I really don't get it.
 
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Trevor Meeks said:
Sorry to break it to you, but the Epic/Scarlet/Red One aren't made to shoot in street lamps and moon only
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I know, RED cameras aren't perfect. Very little ever is.

... they're cinema cameras, not point and shoot, run-and-gun cameras.
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I wasn't running-and-gunning, I was shooting a low-light test. You know, to learn what the camera is capable of.

The DSLR video idea of not lighting shots and shooting everything by the light of street lamps is best left to cameras made for that kind of thing. If that's your style, get a C300 or DSLR.
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So you don't want your Epic/Scarlet to shoot clean images in all kinds of lighting? That's weird. I certainly do.

No offense intended, but again, let's not forget that these are digital cinema cameras, not DSLR/C300 style cameras.
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That makes sense only if it's not possible to make movies on DSLRs or C300.
 
Mark Toia said:
I think its got the balls.. 120 fps RAW 4k... $25k... and shoots HI ISO clean..., come on people. Those are all good points. I'm impressed. What this just killed is the Alexa, the c300 and possibly the Scarlet... but scarlet was always going to get beat. And I'm a RED EPIC lover through and through... I'm just hoping the EPIC doesn't get arse kicked like it did to everything else when it came out... Come on DRAGON I say. Blow us all away.
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Had to quote this because it captures my thoughts & feelings exactly.
 
Does anybody know if this trend with inconvenient external 4K RAW recorders has something to do with Red patents?

Sony, Arri, Canon... all external 4K RAW recorders?

hmm....

;-)
 
Aja and others will be glad to provide various 4K compression units. That SDI 3G connector was a smart move.
Open source 4K data.


N.D. Paolo said:
Does anybody know if this trend with inconvenient external 4K RAW recorders has something to do with Red patents?

Sony, Arri, Canon... all external 4K RAW recorders?

hmm....

;-)
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What about all those who bought the C300? Does Canon have a program to support their migration to C500?

C300 has had an awfully short life. C500 sound like what C300 should have been from day one.
 
Liana said:
What about all those who bought the C300? Does Canon have a program to support their migration to C500?

C300 has had an awfully short life. C500 sound like what C300 should have been from day one.
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It's called: sell your C300 second-hand and put the money towards a C500. You get a new warranty as a bonus.

Also, you don't have to send your camera in anywhere. Just buy the C500 and once it has arrived, sell your C300 if you wish.

Also if you want you can sell your C300 and get a FS700 or an Epic.

What's so nice about this upgrade program is it is brand-agnostic. Also, it means that other people can buy 2nd-hand cameras cheaply.

BTW I don't see why the C300 is out of date. It has the same sensor as the C500, I think. It just does the 1080p downscale in camera, whereas C500 has option to output 4K RAW. Since you're often downscaling to 1080p anyway these days... there is not a huuuge difference for many use cases. EG paying broadcast jobs.

Future-proofing is nice... but some well-paying industries (commercials for example) don't care quite as much about future proofing because there is an expiration date on the usefulness of the media to the client. So 4K RAW is unnecessary unless you want to do a serious amount of grading and can't get anywhere close to the look in camera. For a lot of jobs... it's actually quite easy to get the look in camera.

Pretty sure a C300 could still make you plenty of money, as could any other camera - Scarlet, F3, Alexa, etc.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
I think Red has us spoilt, so much so we now have high expectations from every player in the market.

If this is how Canon are going to try and catch up with Red, next few years will be very expensive and chaotic for those who buy into their system.
 
We might just be getting spoiled by the plethora of new cameras hitting the market since Jim and the RedTeam disrupted the industry - not to mention the march of technology. Would be very curious to shoot a side by side test with the F900 used on the first digital Star Wars in 1999 vs an iPhone4S with a lens adapter & top end glass in terms of color gamut, bit depth, zone plate resolution charts, etc.

FWIW if you don't count the offerings from RED, I agree with Bruce that the C300 is just as viable as most cameras out working today. That said, the rapidity of Canon's move to the C500 reminds me of where Sony found themselves when the F23 came out and they scrambled to get the F35 to market. In any case, buying a camera these days and getting ROI out of it does remind me of placing bets at the horse track. The good news, as noted by others, is that talent and a good client list are the keys to success whatever the camera technology. That said, I have never in my career felt more confident that I can deliver the goods than I have with the Epic in my hand.

If the Dragon sensor gives us even better signal to noise ratio and greater oversampling that's just icing on the cake.

Cheers - #19
 
So...

how exactly does $30K C500...make $15K C300 obsolete ?
 
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