4K monitor out for Red Dragon

[Matt Ryan]

Jeff,

Couldn't we go 6G Sdi out of the Epic to a quad 3G-SDI converter at video village? That would cut down on the bulk of quad 3G-SDI cables running in a sheath. This could be a good workaround if Blackmagic has an option...

 

[Tom Gleeson]

4K monitoring on set is sure to come but the reality of lugging around large monitors to take advantage of this resolution is another thing. 1920X1080 res on monitors 17" and smaller looks awesome and on my Sony OLED 17" I cannot see pixel structure no matter how close I am. 1920X1080 starts to run out of puff by 40" display size. This is all dependant how close you are to the screen of course but from the small numbers of 4K screens I have seen mainly at trade fairs 4K only really comes into its own on 65" screens

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff,

Couldn't we go 6G Sdi out of the Epic to a quad 3G-SDI converter at video village? That would cut down on the bulk of quad 3G-SDI cables running in a sheath. This could be a good workaround if Blackmagic has an option...

6G-SDI is a proprietary BlackMagic thing and it seems to be a hybrid signal DDR take on 3G SDI. You would need two 6G SDI connections to equal quad-3G SDI. Then you would need converters based on BlackMagic tech, assuming they're willing to make such things and/ or license any of it out. RED would have to adopt their tech to incorporate it into the camera... FWIW, I think we're better off with HDMI. We can go HDMI out of the camera at UHD up to 30Hz (assuming the camera would allow it to happen, that is what the current HDMI interfaces can allow) and then we could go into an HDBASE-T sender and send that 4K signal over a single CAT-6 UTP up to about 240 feet with the HDBASE-T receiver at the other end. IMO, that's the most realistic and workable solution at the moment.

A good HDBASE-T balun set capable of UHD/ 4K, like the GEFEN one, is about $280 online from B&H, Adorama and other places that sell them. The cheap crappy one from MonoPrice is $100 cheaper and still does 4K. I've actually used it as a signal booster to get the REDRAY to cooperate with the SEIKI.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I wonder if there could a +2

No dying need for 4k under 9", so I don't see it as a must-have in the brain

Meizler would also have to offer it

 

[Robert Berger]

Panasonic and jvc new "small" on set monitoren probely to see at IBC Amsterdam. Hope that there be a Big Screen viewing from Dragon shots.

 

[Alexandros Tsoupras]

At this point, the only logical argument against it, well two arguments as far as I'm concerned, are:


I would really hope that the Dragon upgrade at least includes HDMI 1.4a support and we could potentially get at least 4K / UHD output from the camera for playback. That would be my current hope and expectation.

+1 on that.

 

[Luis Otero]

There is a say in Spanish that loosely goes like this: "One thing is just calling the Devil, and other is seeing it come". Do we really need to have as an on-set monitoring of images that we know that will be manipulated, either with low intensity, and others with heavy intensity, to be shown to the clients? Are we calling for more problems by insensible questioning from people that do not understand that WYSIWYG is not the case of the on-set monitoring?

Just a thought and open for discussion...

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

What about wireless transmission of the 4k signal via hdmi? Would something like the parralinx arrow work?

 

[Ivan McCullough]

I for one think 4k monitoring would be advantageous in situations where costumes or the like are exhibiting moire etc on the down scaled hd feed but may not have these problems on the 6/5/4k masters.

I never have a DIT station capable of playing back a clip in real time but if 4k monitoring were possible then in time basic rental kits would start to include 4k monitors.

I recently did a one day job where I had costume change 3 items of clothing because I could not be sure if they were a problem or not. The problem was showing on the hd monitors and at 1/4 res on the MacBook but that tells me nothing.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There is a say in Spanish that loosely goes like this: "One thing is just calling the Devil, and other is seeing it come". Do we really need to have as an on-set monitoring of images that we know that will be manipulated, either with low intensity, and others with heavy intensity, to be shown to the clients? Are we calling for more problems by insensible questioning from people that do not understand that WYSIWYG is not the case of the on-set monitoring?

A valid point for sure, but not all of us are working in those situations where we have technically illiterate producers, directors and agency people breathing down our necks. There are distinct advantages to being able to see the most detail possible. In that it also makes a case for display of native acquisition resolution, even if it's 6K+, as an option. For scenarios as you have mentioned, I think it would be advantageous to only show the level of detail appropriate.

I have definitely met people who shouldn't be allowed to see anything better than 480p monochrome...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Go big or ...

Go big or ...

On a soundstage, using large UHD or 4K monitors would be simple enough. Jeff's notes about cable wrangling are well taken and more elegant solutions would be welcome.

In my world, which includes a Sprinter van with a proper viewing environment, a 55" monitor is no problem - I have the 50" Seiki in there at the moment - of course not everyone has that particular setup. Using a ATI Radeon 7970 and a RedRocket card in a GlobalStor ExtremeStor PC I am able to do QC at UHD rez in the van from the RedMag in the RedStation reader in RedCine. I have a RedRocket BreakOutBox as well but since I don't have a AJA Hi-5 mini converter I have not been feeding the Seiki directly from the RR BOB, though in theory that should work as well. Sadly, there is some stuttering on playback as a single Rocket is overmatched by 5K footage, something a second Rocket would likely fix - I think that's how OffHollywood rolls - but I am waiting for the RedRocket-X ;-)

FWIW, the big hi rez image is great for checking focus and noticing items in the frame that need attention - items we missed on smaller, lower resolution monitors. The tangible benefit for producers is knowing with greater certainty that we "got" the shot - this allows us to move on to the next setup without endless "safety" takes and to release talent/crew before they go into OT, etc. There is also something to be said for the satisfaction level of clients (spot world) seeing the clips so big and sharp. YMMV.

IAC, being able to monitor a live UHD or 4K feed would be even better. Whether the Epic hardware could support pushing that out of the HDMI port is unknown - I'd guess it would take an upgraded board, which, in such a physically small device, might be very difficult - not to mention the thermal envelope.

Cheers - #19

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

A good HDBASE-T balun set capable of UHD/ 4K, like the GEFEN one, is about $280 online from B&H, Adorama and other places that sell them. The cheap crappy one from MonoPrice is $100 cheaper and still does 4K. I've actually used it as a signal booster to get the REDRAY to cooperate with the SEIKI.

Yup. The Monoprice ME100's are working great for us for 4K over ethernet to/from HDMI.

Speaking of monoprice - these 4K ready HDMI cables are thinner than BNC's and work GREAT - 50' - http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10255&cs_id=1025506&p_id=9432&seq=1&format=2

 

[Luis Otero]

A valid point for sure, but not all of us are working in those situations where we have technically illiterate producers, directors and agency people breathing down our necks. There are distinct advantages to being able to see the most detail possible. In that it also makes a case for display of native acquisition resolution, even if it's 6K+, as an option. For scenarios as you have mentioned, I think it would be advantageous to only show the level of detail appropriate.

I have definitely met people who shouldn't be allowed to see anything better than 480p monochrome...

Agreed...!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

When I can get a 10~17 " lightweight 4K monitor that connects with a single cable that can run 50+feet, or better yet even have wireless abilities, then call me. Until then, I'm not interested. There are some tasks for which HD actually is "good enough"... At least for now.

If the EPIC could do live 4K live out soon - it would be significant. Even if it was a more expensive module - it would be a BIG deal.

EVERY single commercial and fashion shoot here in NYC would have a 4K client monitor if they could.

Not to mention all the other opportunities that 4K live out gives you - it would allow realtime pan, scan and zoom for 1080p broadcast while recording 4K + at higher framerates for sports for example.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

There is a say in Spanish that loosely goes like this: "One thing is just calling the Devil, and other is seeing it come". Do we really need to have as an on-set monitoring of images that we know that will be manipulated, either with low intensity, and others with heavy intensity, to be shown to the clients? Are we calling for more problems by insensible questioning from people that do not understand that WYSIWYG is not the case of the on-set monitoring?

Just a thought and open for discussion...

Luis, you made my point far better than I did. We deliberately have kinda crappy monitors on set - they are fine for framing and focussing, that's it. We even have a sticker that says "this monitor is framing-accurate only" which invites a client-conversation if they ask, which helps them understand RAW.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

You win the pessimistic Reduser award for sure.

You may not want it, but you don't dictate what others want. I'd love to view images in 4K on set. It makes sense for a lot of reasons...I don't have to justify them to you. You also must not be on narrative sets because I've seen displays up to 55 inches. The future is coming whether you care to jump onboard or not, doesn't mean we shouldn't push for progress. If 1080p is good for you, then by all means, don't view in 4K.

So you can see 1080p vs 4K on a '9 screen?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I'm with you, Matt.

We tout 4k to our corporate clients all we can. Then, they never even get to see the work in 4k. I'm hoping that a solution surfaces soon to allow us to at least show 4k on set so clients can see the difference...and know why they're paying more than just HD. ;-)

Thanks.

Kevin

If they are delivering at 1080p, which most clients still are, then why would they need to see it? AND... they are seeing it. 4K looks way better when downsampled to 1080p than something originated at 1080p, and has way more laittitude for re-framing, grading, greenscreen, feature-tracking (post tracking) and other benefits.

 

[Luis Otero]

Luis, you made my point far better than I did. We deliberately have kinda crappy monitors on set - they are fine for framing and focussing, that's it. We even have a sticker that says "this monitor is framing-accurate only" which invites a client-conversation if they ask, which helps them understand RAW.

Robert,

My opinion is that on-set monitoring is just that, on-set monitoring. It serves a purpose, which is mainly a reference point.

If the clients are to see their images in their whole splendor, the studio in where they are editing and grading the footage, with far more lighting control, they will really be able to appreciate the quality of the footage, and the aesthetic path being followed to finesse their look.

The on-set environment, IMO, is not conductive to really appreciate the splendor of the 4K images (unless a theatre-controlled-tent is always on the move between locations).

Just my opinion...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

RocketDeck & RocketLink product suggestion

RocketDeck & RocketLink product suggestion

I am not an engineer, I don't even play one on TV, but I'd sure love the rock star engineers at RED to consider the feasibility of the following:

RocketDeck:

Put a RedRocket-X and a RedStation mag reader in a stand alone chassis with multiple I/O options. Can be connected to computers via Thunderbolt 2, USB 3, etc and used as an external RedRocket-X appliance with a mag reader on the same fast bus, as well as direct connection to monitoring over SDI, HDMI, etc.

Include a mid-level CPU, RAM, 256GB SSD and an OS so if desired it could stand alone. Design it to be controlled from a laptop, tablet, phone, USB, Bluetooth, etc. The Rocket-X is doing the heavy lifting as well as providing monitor output(s) for GUI and full quality clean image (laptop, tablet or phone could display the GUI as well) so the "host" would not need expensive high end chips.

Now you have a roughly $10,000 (rack mountable please) black box that can be used to play out r3ds at your resolution of choice up to 4K in real time. It could use RedCinePro-X or something similar as the control environment so you can tweak the image to taste for the live outputs. Among other things, this would allow you to push out a graded RGB image at UHD or 4K over 4x SDI or other appropriate I/O for ingest/recording/etc in real time.

RocketLink:

Now here's the kicker. What if you made plugs that fit into an Epic SSD module, using the existing pins/contacts, and fed that out over fiber (tactical please) to a matching plug on the other end that fit into the mag reader in the RocketDeck. The RAW bitstream would then be decoded by the Rocket-X, "shaded" by the virtual CCU provided by the look tools in RedCinePro-X (or perhaps a modified version of same) and sent out to the switcher over SDI or HDMI for live hardlined production applications.

This topology allows the heavy decoding effort to happen away from the camera so no expensive, heavy, power hungry, heat generating module has to be added. In addition, it allows the metrics of the decode and playback to be managed at the technical/switching station in the truck/control room where "shaders" have traditionally been situated. Yes, I realize actual iris control would probably not be supported, but the operator could set it manually to something appropriate to the situation, and with 16 stops of DR the shader should be able to ride the levels and match the cameras nicely.

There are probably gotchas I haven't thought of, but I like the fact that it shouldn't require any re-engineering of the camera itself. It might even support iso recording by adding a rear SSD module in addition to the side SSD - not sure if the internal signal routing would allow that, but it seems likely. IAC, always looking for ways to use my favorite camera in a wider range of applications.

Cheers - #19

 

[Matt Ryan]

So you can see 1080p vs 4K on a '9 screen?

hahahahahahaha you give your clients a 9" monitor for playback and viewing? my GOD! We have 24" screens minimum, sometimes up to 55" depending on the shoot. So yes, you can easily tell a difference even on a 24" monitor... I'm not talking about for onboard monitoring if that's what your argument entails.. Why are you so against this as an option? For GOD sake, if you don't like it, don't use it. Stick to 1080 if you like.