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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K Delivery... get ready.

When I began to query about a 4K finish as per the requirement for the feature film deliverable for this Shot On Red Film Fest for Path Of Souls it was actually quite illuminating. Many top post houses said 4K mastering is rare and even though we can do it we don't see many actually going through with it because the costs are so high for folks. They were happy to do 2K but 4K was not in the cards just yet.

This may very well change with today's announcement, and certainly the hardware is becoming more affordable. I'm actually very excited to see my film in 4K and to have audiences experience it in 4K.

Release the hounds Jarred!
 
Tanner Field said:
That is one hell of a stretch without any sort of evidence or cases to back it up. In fact I can think of countless films that would completely contradict what you're saying... Safety Not Guaranteed. Was a huge success this year. Shot on the F3 Anamorphic, so infact it wasn't even 1080P. Had a major theatrical run. And I don't think the producers of Skyfall would take that comment seriously in the least. I would be very interested to know what the percentage of films that were mastered in 4K vs 2K these days...
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DON'T FIGHT FATE!!!! TANNER, Embrace the future!!! What I was saying is all the 2k delivery will be changed to full 4k before Lindsay Lohan can get out of jail!!!!!
 
In typical RED fashion, it will probably be sometime this evening... Maybe even late.
 
Jarred Land said:
We are open.. putting the power in the hands of the content producers , no matter how big or small you are, and the content viewer , no matter how big or small you are.

All we care is that you are shooting 4k, finishing 4K, and watching 4K.

It is the way it should be.
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This is definitely why I'm here. And will be. I believe. Like no other.

Although the camera system is AWESOME, my support goes far beyond the material element of the tool you guys have built. I'm all for the underdog with genuine intent. I wish more people were, but you know what they say...lead by example.

Eryc
 
Today is the day, one small step decided in all our futures.

I'm hoping our SSDs will plug right into the REDRAY for full rez playback instantly.
 
Will Keir said:
Today is the day, one small step decided in all our futures.

I'm hoping our SSDs will plug right into the REDRAY for full rez playback instantly.
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Exciting, to say the least.
 
Josh Beadle said:
Anyone done a study of human perception of the diminishing returns of resolution on a typical 60" TV? In photo printing there is a point where extra resolution is wasted since it does nothing to add to the perceived detail of the print. Wonder where that line is for TV or movie viewing . . . 4K, 8K, 24K?
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This has been discussed on a few occasions here in the forum. I would try to find it for you, but admittedly, I'm procrastinating enough as it is. My current AE color correction workflow sucks. :)
 
I'd like to know if there's a workflow to write to a Red SSD for insertion into Red Ray or Red Projector -I think I saw a photo in the other thread that had an SSD slot. But maybe USB 3 is fast enough for sustained playback of a two hour feature?
 
M Most said:
I understand your adherence to the belief that 4K is the best format for the moment. But there are an awful lot of productions that are financed by studios that specify HD delivery, or other formats. And others that are simply going to be distributed in only those formats. Do you only want your cameras used by those who agree with you, or do you really want everyone using them, regardless of their personal requirements? Putting "power in the hands of the content producers" means letting them do whatever they want with your equipment, not just what you would do.
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Come on Mike. You know that RED has pushed and promoted the 4K format for acquisition and delivery as the future for many years. Even when everyone laughed. So ... do you really think that a company that took the lead on 4K acquisition and is about to step into the 4K delivery business really wants to promote shooting in HD ...?
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
I truly wonder if the Paramount Consent Decree will be revisited... especially looking at Sony's apparent strategy.
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This I highly doubt. The current legal climate is a travesty of what it purports to be.

Not that this should be news to anyone, but our judicial system was not designed to protect the vast majority of us. Money rules. Government, and its laws, rarely prove useful to the majority because it derives its power from the financial minority which instituted it. In other words, the dominant group wins. And this happens irrespective of whether or not that group holds the most legitimate or moral view, but because they created rules to support their own agendas. History shows us this time and time again, but I'm sure this is a point of contention and someone will want to flame me for it.

I worked at a certain studio that underwent a merger. When the rumors began to circulate that an acquisition was imminent, I did a little research to see just how extensive both company's holdings were. When I shared the rather dubious information with others, they just shrugged it off. These companies are so large, they often already own stakes in one another. The rabbit hole is deep.

It's really funny what you can find on the Internet if you dig. Needless to say, the film industry is a lot like every other major industry...they already have some veiled oligopoly in place. Color me Oliver Stone. Ha.

It takes a radical, with very deep pockets AND big cajones, to shake things up. And yes, that is a very pointed statement.
 
Josh Beadle said:
Like everything - the rules are warped by those with the gold and political power. Look at how Hollywood and RIAA is fucking up the Internet to protect their dated business model. As long as Sony has the right lobbyist and Super PAC in place there will not be an issue with those in charge.
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Couldn't agree more. You wrote it much more succinctly though.

This is why what is happening today is so important. We are living through, and contributing, to a major historical turnover. This company is RED for a reason. :)

This site attempts to outline the media company hierarchy: http://www.mondotimes.com/company/
 
I think the trouble with trying to define standardized resolutions is the multitude of common viewing sizes and distances that are possible. Ultimately, the goal is to erase all doubt or perception of pexelized elements -- the "retina display" effect. I think 1080p is a fine resolution for smart phones. 2K or 2.5K is great for tablet devices. That seems easy to identify and the market has fallen into alignment. When it comes to larger displays, there is no clear-cut formula. Some people try to claim there is, but it doesn't work that way. 1080p on a 32" display is just fine if you're always 25ft. away from it. If it's sitting on your desk, it's pixelized murder.

At my roughly 8~9 foot viewing distance to my 50" plasma monitor, I can still make out pixels just fine on its 1080p screen. I definitely want to move to 4K for that display and would also like to go to a 55" or a bit larger than what I have -- 60" is probably asking a bit too much, but it might work if the bezel frame is thin enough.

At my 12 ~ 14 foot distance where I sit from my 71" 1080p DLP, I could definitely use more resolution. 4K again would make sense.

I think the progression beyond 4K will come as well, NHK along with JVC and Sony are exploring (and have been for some time) their SuperHiVision "8K" format. I wish they wouldn't call it 8K, it's actually 7K and nowhere near 8K in terms of typical "K" calculations or any other mathematically accepted ways to get there. But that's another discussion I guess. So far it's hard to judge what 7K+ will bring to the table because the image quality thus far on that technology has been dreadful.

In my own experience and testing, there is no real perception or effect of diminishing returns. More resolution is a continued improvement up to the point where it's enough and we just can't see any more detail. Now, I think there is merit to having resolution greater than what our visual acuity allows. Even though we can't resolve beyond a certain point, there is still inflections and interference patterns created that our eyes and brain can detect in the form of further perceived texture and detail. I guess this is the point where the discussion goes completely speculative and theoretical, even philosophical. There was a paper a few years back from Stanford along with some other industry partner or other school talking about the uses of ultra-high resolution. Steve Jobs even cited this paper at one point, back in '05 or somewhere about then, when the first talk of "retina' displays surfaced and there were patents being filed for resolution independence for computer displays. The theory basically went along the lines of supplying 300~400 ppi to desktop displays and defining screen dimensions in points or physical dimensions rather than pixel resolutions. Everything was ultra-high print resolution or vector based and could be scaled as needed to fit the display parameters. This is where computer displays are ultimately headed. And I think all other screens as well. 300+ ppi. Distribution formats will become multi-resolution -- similar to what we can do now with wavelet based codecs, but expanding on it. Eventually we'll be creating 28K or whatever for cinema screens and it the same file that plays there will play at 8K on a home projector, 4K on a common UHD TV, 2K on a tablet...

Anyway, that's where I see it all going. And perhaps even expanding from there once the 300 ppi "retina" thing has come to pass. Lots of other exciting tech showing up in the display field such as microfaceted surface 3D -- where different wavelengths and amounts of light are sent out of the same pixel element at different angles. This is the future of no-glasses 3D from a 2D surface. Unlimited viewing angles and no parallax barriers or other alignment issues. And yet, viewers on one side of the room will see a slightly different, yet still 3D, effect than those in the middle or on the other side.

3D spatial projection is also becoming reality. In its infancy now, but in another 100 years, I'll be surprised if we don't have something comparable to the Star Trek "holodeck". Just think of the level of detail required there to make something 100% convincing. 300ppi on 3D reflected spatial surfaces won't cut it.


Perhaps in a nutshell, the real way to look it this is... Resolution is like CPU power and storage capacity. It is going to increase at an ever accelerating pace until it can accommodate anything we can dream of doing. Resolution has had a few hiccups along the way, primarily getting stuck in the HD doldrums and various display technology transitions holding it back, but this is happening.
 
NEIL ANDREW BATES said:
"Like everything - the rules are warped by those with the gold and political power. Look at how Hollywood and RIAA is fucking up the Internet to protect their dated business model. As long as Sony has the right lobbyist and Super PAC in place there will not be an issue with those in charge."

That 'paramount consent' article refers to a long gone and historical distribution model anyway. How do you feel that Hollywood and the RIAA actions on the internet are restricting the progress of content distribution today?
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I think it was merely an example. You may already be aware of this, but if not...it's worth some research. Net Neutrality
 
Redray was demonstrating 4K at 15 Mb/s 2 years ago... 15 teeny tiny mb/s - not even sure what Mike Most meant by his post... huh?

An open system sounds to me like you can shoot on any 4K camera and use the Red Ray to master and playback to 4K ... that sounds pretty hollywood smart to me versus Sony's attempt to create
a new codec that will only play on their 4K eco system. (as it appears right now)
 
Ok, so I get the redray box with 4k delivery capability...what am going to watch the 4k image on? The 25k Sony tv I have in my living room? Does it also output a 1080p image I can monitor today?(and perhaps the next 3 years while I wait for 4k tv/projectors becoming affordable). The only scenario this would be useful for me would be if I could hook it up to my computer and use it as a RedRocket/4k playback device(if it's cheaper than a RedRocket that is). I do appreciate RED looking ahead and making shure there is a delivery format for 4k, but I guess this product is more for the commercial theatre market than consumers as of today...i would be more exited if there was a affordable solution for viewing/monitoring 4k material as I already have the capability of playing back 4 k content from my computer. And as I understand the RED laser projector will have redray built in, so why would I need a standalone box? I guess I will find ot later today...
 
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Funny, I was going to suggest you were the author I was thinking of, Jeff. And I completely think you are correct. Our current solution for authoring various formats feels extremely archaic. Supplying deliverables to support all the potential uses, is a real pain in the arse.

Jeff Kilgroe said:
Everything was ultra-high print resolution or vector based and could be scaled as needed to fit the display parameters. This is where computer displays are ultimately headed. And I think all other screens as well. 300+ ppi. Distribution formats will become multi-resolution -- similar to what we can do now with wavelet based codecs, but expanding on it. Eventually we'll be creating 28K or whatever for cinema screens and it the same file that plays there will play at 8K on a home projector, 4K on a common UHD TV, 2K on a tablet...
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